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Squad not good enough...or unable to play a different style?

Bedfordspurs said:
United record without Fernades is horrendous
People talk about our reliance on Kane and it’s true but theirs on Fernandes is very comparable
They rarely even score if he isn’t on the pitch (even if he is playing poorly)
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It's amazing (data suggested way more dependence on him vs. Kane) but I think it's a unique combination of
- The impact he makes as a player from ability perspective
- The impact he makes in giving a brick and dragging the other players along

The second part is almost more important, United has a bunch of very expensive players with ability, but most are there to collect a paycheck, I think players like Pogba are almost embarrassed into playing better when Bruno is on the field
 
SteveAWOL said:
I wonder how many of our squad have this kind of elite winning meteorology... must be a refreshing change for Pochettino to coach such players.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1361809396867731458
https://twitter.com/x/status/1361811980680646658
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Sigh. I miss that man, every fudging day we have to put up with this trash. I'm glad he's at a club with champions where he can build what he wants and what he deserves, so he can show the world how good he really is - better than Klopp, better than Nagelsmann and all these other flavours of the day, and better than Mourinho.

As for your question, Kane, I guess.

Now maybe Hojbjerg, he doesn't seem to like losing.

That's it.
 
Raziel said:
I'm not sure it's weakest link as in worse player, but sometimes player fit for the system.
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Definitely a good correction. That's what I was thinking, but not how I wrote it.

billyiddo said:
Agree on Fernandes.

Could probably argue Bale too under AVB.

I don't think that analogy stands up to any scrutiny whatsover - sorry Brain
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Not sure some examples to the contrary means that that way of seeing things doesn't hold up to scrutiny. As I said in my post, one or two outstanding players can make a huge difference. Obviously Kane and Son makes a huge difference for us.

A bit too often I think football is seen as a game of stars, that's where the focus is. Kane vs. whatever striker, Messi vs. Ronaldo and on and on and on.

Rarely is it seen as Sanches vs. whatever the opposing weaker centre back is. Or Winks/Sissoko vs. the opposing weakest central midfielder.

It's not a perfect analogy of course, a chain will break at it's weakest link every time. Football doesn't work like that. But the limitations put on a team be having to adjust to weaknesses, the outright limitations of the weaker players, the way weaker players fail to get the best out of their better team mates... It makes a huge difference.

Imo Hojbjerg has made a massive difference to us this season. Not because he's our best player, he's not. Not because he's the best deep midfielder in the league, he's not (imo). But he's a good player and fixes what was a clear weak link in our team. Fixing those can have as much of an impact as signing a superstar as an upgrade on an already good player. See many versions of PSG.
 
Wasn’t sure where to put this
But everyone recognises the defence is gash and playing so badly...
And people have said it’s the chopping and changing of the defence that’s hurt partly
I just saw the Leicester line up and they have had to change their defence loads without any obvious issues
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Wasn’t sure where to put this
But everyone recognises the defence is gash and playing so badly...
And people have said it’s the chopping and changing of the defence that’s hurt partly
I just saw the Leicester line up and they have had to change their defence loads without any obvious issues
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So....

1. Better manager/coaches?
2. Better buying policy and therefore better level of players?
3. Have kept tactics/shape more consistent so that each of the components always knows what they are doing?
4. Backup players who have similar attributes to the first choices so the game plan can remain the same no matter the personnel?
5. Better keeper behind them?
6. More consistent tracking of opponent’s runs from their attacking players?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Wasn’t sure where to put this
But everyone recognises the defence is gash and playing so badly...
And people have said it’s the chopping and changing of the defence that’s hurt partly
I just saw the Leicester line up and they have had to change their defence loads without any obvious issues
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Yes, because Leicester, Pool, City, Leeds pretty much play the same way every game, they are "system" sides, plus to that is players should rotate in easier, negative is they often take much longer to adapt initially to system, also there tends to be no plan B (the wheels can fall off badly, e.g. Pool being killed by Villa).

Mourinho is not a system manager, having that conversation is a dead end, if we wanted that, he wasn't the guy to hire.

The FB changes have been forced, fit, Reguilon and Aurier would play every PL/top level game

So you get to the CBs
- Toby -> best defender by a mile, slow and not great in the air, doesn't like playing left
- Sanchez -> fastest defender by a mile, gets turned easily, lacks concentration, not great in the air, doesn't like playing left
- Dier -> best in air (still not great), lacks concentration, preference is not left
- Rodon -> happy to play on left, not great in the air, unproven at this level

The reason they keep being changed is they all have obvious weaknesses that can be targeted by the opposition, and none of them consistently turn in good performances (no one is earning a spot).

It's super easy to say

- Never play Sanchez again, he's brick .. ok, so what do you do against a team with pace? (sit the whole team deeper? then everyone complains about negative/dinosaur football)
- Never play Dier again, he's brick .. ok, so who plays left? what do you do against a team that will cross a ton of stuff in the air?

One dominant CB could make this back line work, but we don't have that person so the team switches as best as it can on form and opposition to cope.

Is it successful? = no, but I find it hard that people can't see the logic/reasoning/tactics, it's pretty clear.
 
I always had the impression that Mourinos teams had a setup they stuck to 99% of the time and then in the big crunch games he would adapt to tactically nullify the oppositions threat.

Certainly don't remember his Chelsea teams setting up differently game to game or at Madrid.
 
Raziel said:
Yes, because Leicester, Pool, City, Leeds pretty much play the same way every game, they are "system" sides, plus to that is players should rotate in easier, negative is they often take much longer to adapt initially to system, also there tends to be no plan B (the wheels can fall off badly, e.g. Pool being killed by Villa).

Mourinho is not a system manager, having that conversation is a dead end, if we wanted that, he wasn't the guy to hire.

The FB changes have been forced, fit, Reguilon and Aurier would play every PL/top level game

So you get to the CBs
- Toby -> best defender by a mile, slow and not great in the air, doesn't like playing left
- Sanchez -> fastest defender by a mile, gets turned easily, lacks concentration, not great in the air, doesn't like playing left
- Dier -> best in air (still not great), lacks concentration, preference is not left
- Rodon -> happy to play on left, not great in the air, unproven at this level

The reason they keep being changed is they all have obvious weaknesses that can be targeted by the opposition, and none of them consistently turn in good performances (no one is earning a spot).

It's super easy to say

- Never play Sanchez again, he's brick .. ok, so what do you do against a team with pace? (sit the whole team deeper? then everyone complains about negative/dinosaur football)
- Never play Dier again, he's brick .. ok, so who plays left? what do you do against a team that will cross a ton of stuff in the air?

One dominant CB could make this back line work, but we don't have that person so the team switches as best as it can on form and opposition to cope.

Is it successful? = no, but I find it hard that people can't see the logic/reasoning/tactics, it's pretty clear.
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Then isn’t the answer to a lot of this.... play the guy who is happy to play on the left?!?
 
Raziel said:
- Rodon -> happy to play on left, not great in the air, unproven at this level

.. ok, so who plays left? what do you do against a team that will cross a ton of stuff in the air?

One dominant CB could make this back line work, but we don't have that person.
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I don't personally rate Rodon as highly as others on this forum. But he is very tall, so must be at least OK in the air. Strange how far his star has fallen so quickly, where is he?
 
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Bullet said:
I don't personally rate Rodon as highly as others on this forum. But he is very tall, so must be at least OK in the air. Strange how far his star has fallen so quickly, where is he?
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I don't really have an opinion on Rodon as yet (likewise Tangana but to a lesser extent). He could be totally gash and error prone like Sanchez and Dier are (we have seen 2 instances so far) but I'd be willing to see him make those mistakes at this point rather than watching the two who we do select make the same disasters game after game.
 
Can't buy into "the squad isn't good enough" when Craig Dawson at West Ham was relegated and is playing better than our current crop of CBs. It's poor methods and coaching not getting the maximum required from the squad, which is literally the managers job.

Nearly any team in the top 6 would kill for Kane, Son, Bale, Bergwijn, Ndombele in their team. We're not performing to our potential, plain and simple. Yes we have some poor players, but player for player you'd pick every one of our first XI over West Ham's for example (maybe Soucek only), and look at how they perform, play to their strengths etc.
 
Diamond Lights said:
Can't buy into "the squad isn't good enough" when Craig Dawson at West Ham was relegated and is playing better than our current crop of CBs. It's poor methods and coaching not getting the maximum required from the squad, which is non-figuratively the managers job.
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This is spot on.


But Bergwijn just doesn't cut the mustard. Stated brilliantly with that City goal then?
 
Diamond Lights said:
Can't buy into "the squad isn't good enough" when Craig Dawson at West Ham was relegated and is playing better than our current crop of CBs. It's poor methods and coaching not getting the maximum required from the squad, which is non-figuratively the managers job.

Nearly any team in the top 6 would kill for Kane, Son, Bale, Bergwijn, Ndombele in their team. We're not performing to our potential, plain and simple. Yes we have some poor players, but player for player you'd pick every one of our first XI over West Ham's for example (maybe Soucek only), and look at how they perform, play to their strengths etc.
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Think you’re reaching. Your desire to prove a point of what a good squad we have and you come up with that list - of which Bergwijn has done very little, and Bale has to be polite been underwhelming. So we are left with Kane, Son and NDombele who are top players, I’d actually say Aurier has proved himself to be added to that list, and Reguilon too but beyond that? From GK to CBs to CM(if Hojberg gets injured we are massively exposed) to AM we could easily have better. It’s not a disaster of a squad, and we could easily still finish top 6 but jeez this squad still needs a lot of investment. Even if you wanted to argue some of them are good enough, there are plenty who have just been here too long and could do with a refresh. Of course easier said than done.....
 
harr1984 said:
Think you’re reaching. Your desire to prove a point of what a good squad we have and you come up with that list - of which Bergwijn has done very little, and Bale has to be polite been underwhelming. So we are left with Kane, Son and NDombele who are top players, I’d actually say Aurier has proved himself to be added to that list, and Reguilon too but beyond that? From GK to CBs to CM(if Hojberg gets injured we are massively exposed) to AM we could easily have better. It’s not a disaster of a squad, and we could easily still finish top 6 but jeez this squad still needs a lot of investment. Even if you wanted to argue some of them are good enough, there are plenty who have just been here too long and could do with a refresh. Of course easier said than done.....
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Dont disagree at all on the stale nature of our squad, that's on Levy entirely. He was literally told this two years ago but knew better...

However, coming back to your point, player for player, our squad is superior to West Ham. As good as Everton, as good as Leicester. On par with Man U too, they may have Bruno Fernandes but we have Harry Kane.

The issue is West Ham's manager is pulling together a package greater than the sum of its parts. Mourinho isnt, and that's on him.
 
StephenH said:
This is spot on.


But Bergwijn just doesn't cut the mustard. Stated brilliantly with that City goal then?
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Don't get me wrong Bergwijn been poor, i fail to believe however a 23 year old Dutch international who's a League winner can be written off at 23. Jamie Vardy was playing for Fleetwood at 25.

I think other managers who focus on attacking play would get far more out of him. Rodgers is getting some incredible turnaround from Harvey Barnes. I'll be the first to say Berg's not delivered, but it's unfair to write off an attacking player under a manager renowned for not focusing on attacking play.
 
Diamond Lights said:
Dont disagree at all on the stale nature of our squad, that's on Levy entirely. He was non-figuratively told this two years ago but knew better...

However, coming back to your point, player for player, our squad is superior to West Ham. As good as Everton, as good as Leicester. On par with Man U too, they may have Bruno Fernandes but we have Harry Kane.

The issue is West Ham's manager is pulling together a package greater than the sum of its parts. Mourinho isnt, and that's on him.
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Honestly, I would take Fabianski over Lloris these days. I would take their CBs over ours, Rice and Soueck would arguably get into our team at CM and Bowen I would take over Lamela and possibly Moura. That is damning of how we haven’t progressed our squad because for the past few years there would only be one player at most you would have said might get anywhere near our team.

Of course it’s on Mourinho to get more out of our players, but when a lot of the same people are still here who haven’t got any better that must be increasingly difficult. Lloris, Sanchez, Dier, Toby, Sissoko, Lamela,Winks...That’s quite a list of players who have been involved a long time and are still getting regular games. You go back to other clubs squads 3-4 years ago and I bet there isn’t another club who has the same amount of active players still involved now. It has been massively mismanaged, and I’m not sure who is ultimately to blame but it stems way beyond Mourinho even if he hasn’t helped himself....
 
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