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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

SpurMeUp said:
What I take from that is you are fixated.

I think everyone is upset by losses of lives on both side. Both the actions of Hammas and the Israeli government are reprehensible. Though I suspect you think Hamas' actions should be understood in the context of Israels actions. Because you are clearly baised towards one side.

Some seem football supporter-like towards their side, blinkered to any nauances or semblence of understanding towards the other side. A fixation with anti-Israel. I only see a similar vitriolic approach from one area of the other side - the Israeli right wing. Why would anyone wish to ratchet up conflict and stoke more voilence and terror? I don't get it. Rather than call for peace, understanding and building bridges, people enflame, enrage and fuel more conflict. Those people - on both sides - are the problem. A vast majority favour conciliation, desculation and peace. A few nutcases cause misery to the majority.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember you being exercised by the horrors of the Syrian war. Or the ongoing state of Libia. Where our nation contributed to the wrongs. What is it about this conflict that makes you especially partisan?
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I'm not biased to any one side. I am pro humanity.

What makes the whole Israel-Palestine issue that much more interesting is if you say 'Syria is an oppressive state which is pulverising people' that's fine. If you say Libya has done the same that's fine.

If you say Hamas are terrorists who have killed innocent civilians. And Israel are a fascist state who have done exactly the same.

There's all of a sudden loads of people taking issue with that last part. With other issues you're able to state the facts without argument. When you do so with regards to Palestine-Israel there's always people trying to refute calling the Israeli side for what it is.

I can't think of many other conflicts/disputes where within our own country there's such a taboo over calling the state out for their own behaviour. If there was acceptance of Israel's responsibility at a governmental and social level then people would be less engaged with it - just because you'd then trust its in safe hands.

Immediately it would become like any other conflict -where universal acceptance of wrong on one or both sides is acknowledged. People only go out to the streets protesting against national/global wrongs that they feel are not acknowledged. When they are acknowledged there's no need to campaign for acknowledgement.

There's also no sense in saying it's only one area of Israel 'the Israeli right wing' who are partisan. They aren't just a small sector of Israeli society - the Israeli right-wing are the elected government that currently runs the country. Not an outside sect.
 
Craig_J said:
I'm not biased to any one side. I am pro humanity.

What makes the whole Israel-Palestine issue that much more interesting is if you say 'Syria is an oppressive state which is pulverising people' that's fine. If you say Libya has done the same that's fine.

If you say Hamas are terrorists who have killed innocent civilians. And Israel are a fascist state who have done exactly the same.

There's all of a sudden loads of people taking issue with that last part. With other issues you're able to state the facts without argument. When you do so with regards to Palestine-Israel there's always people trying to refute calling the Israeli side for what it is.

I can't think of many other conflicts/disputes where within our own country there's such a taboo over calling the state out for their own behaviour. If there was acceptance of Israel's responsibility at a governmental and social level then people would be less engaged with it - just because you'd then trust its in safe hands.

Immediately it would become like any other conflict -where universal acceptance of wrong on one or both sides is acknowledged. People only go out to the streets protesting against national/global wrongs that they feel are not acknowledged. When they are acknowledged there's no need to campaign for acknowledgement.

There's also no sense in saying it's only one area of Israel 'the Israeli right wing' who are partisan. They aren't just a small sector of Israeli society - the Israeli right-wing are the elected government that currently runs the country. Not an outside sect.
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I can't think of any other conflict/dispute where a country is continually under terrorist attack as Israel is.

If Israel were acting the way it does in a vacuum (as many of its critics attempt to judge it) then its actions would not be acceptable. When the fact that civilians in Israel are constantly under attack is taken into account, its actions appear entirely reasonable.

Nobody answered my suggestion for a 2 state solution from the other day. Is that because none of Israel's detractors think it will work? If so, why not?
 
scaramanga said:
I can't think of any other conflict/dispute where a country is continually under terrorist attack as Israel is.

If Israel were acting the way it does in a vacuum (as many of its critics attempt to judge it) then its actions would not be acceptable. When the fact that civilians in Israel are constantly under attack is taken into account, its actions appear entirely reasonable.

Nobody answered my suggestion for a 2 state solution from the other day. Is that because none of Israel's detractors think it will work? If so, why not?
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I'd bet the overwhelming majority of attacks on Israel are occurring on the land that they are illegally occupying - not land that actually belongs to them. And you also can't see attacks against Israel 'outside the vacuum' of relentless occupation and transgression of international laws. Laws that were designed precisely to try and prevent such inflation of relations.

Where's the two state solution you have proposed? I genuinely don't think I've seen it. I didn't even think you supported any two sttae solution. You've consistently implied Palestinan lifes aren't worth anything.
 
Craig_J said:
I'm not biased to any one side. I am pro humanity.

What makes the whole Israel-Palestine issue that much more interesting is if you say 'Syria is an oppressive state which is pulverising people' that's fine. If you say Libya has done the same that's fine.

If you say Hamas are terrorists who have killed innocent civilians. And Israel are a fascist state who have done exactly the same.

There's all of a sudden loads of people taking issue with that last part. With other issues you're able to state the facts without argument. When you do so with regards to Palestine-Israel there's always people trying to refute calling the Israeli side for what it is.

I can't think of many other conflicts/disputes where within our own country there's such a taboo over calling the state out for their own behaviour. If there was acceptance of Israel's responsibility at a governmental and social level then people would be less engaged with it - just because you'd then trust its in safe hands.

Immediately it would become like any other conflict -where universal acceptance of wrong on one or both sides is acknowledged. People only go out to the streets protesting against national/global wrongs that they feel are not acknowledged. When they are acknowledged there's no need to campaign for acknowledgement.

There's also no sense in saying it's only one area of Israel 'the Israeli right wing' who are partisan. They aren't just a small sector of Israeli society - the Israeli right-wing are the elected government that currently runs the country. Not an outside sect.
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So you are exercised not by the innocent deaths, but a lack of black and white condemnation of Israel is what you are saying. Clearly as you barely lifted a finger to your keyboard while your own nation gave arms and contributed to a conflict that caused far more deaths (far more childred killed too) and led to 6 million refugees! Six million. Wasn't a concern for you.

Can you consider that conflicts are not fully black or white, right and wrong? Even something as seemingly clear cut as the invasion of Ukraine has nuances and history than most don't appreciate or aren't discussed from our partisan angle. Because you are entrenched, you won't be able to see the other side or understand the nauances. Is the conflict cut and dry, with one side the villan? With no history, no provocation, no expulsion of jewish peoples from arab nations etc? I don't believe anyone thinks the retailation is just but then we didn't have people from our nation raped and murdered on mass. There are always two sides to conflicts. If you are able to only see one of them, then scant chance of finding resolution. Why? Because there is someone exactly like you on the other side. And together you keep fueling the fire.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
So you are exercised not by the innocent deaths, but a lack of black and white condemnation of Israel is what you are saying. Clearly as you barely lifted a finger to your keyboard while your own nation gave arms and contributed to a conflict that caused far more deaths (far more childred killed too) and led to 6 million refugees! Six million. Wasn't a concern for you.

Can you consider that conflicts are not fully black or white, right and wrong? Even an invasion of Ukraine has more nuances and history than most appreciate. Because you are fixated, you won't be able to see the other side or understand the nauances of Palastine. Or is there zero case for the villian? Its cut and dry with no history, no provocation, no expulsion of jewish peoples from arab nations etc? I don't believe anyone thinks the retailation is just but then we didn't have people from our nation raped and murdered. There are always two sides to conflicts. If you are able to only see one of them, then scant chance of finding resolution. Why? Because there is someone exactly like you on the other side. And together you keep it going. You keep fueling the fire.
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What conflict are we talking about here?
 
Craig_J said:
What conflict are we talking about here?
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Our nation contributed to the Syrian war. 600,000 killed. 6 million displaced. Your elected government sent arms. Doesn't seem like you were excercised greatly though. Your post assuming Syria was a black and white affair is flawed. Yes Asad and his fathers Bathist party were brutal dictators. But pre-war they were also understood to be a relatively stable nation, and a case of better the devil you know. Asad was educated here in the UK and was seen as someone the west could at least work with, have a conversation with. But then it became a huge proxy war. US vs Russia. Isreal vs Iran etc With each power backing their side.

And the ramifications are are still playing out today. The refugree crisis and its contribution to Brexit. And when Russia invaded Ukraine, the US intelligence agencies were already '1-0 down'. Having effectively lost the proxy war in Syria, they weren't going to lose the next one. Or will they?

In Libya, we backed up America. We sent planes, drones, bombed, sent arms...and we helped to destroy much of a country. Gadarfi was killed but the nation destabiled, and decended into years of civil war. Pre-war it was a stable relatively sorted nation. Now Lybia is decades away from just getting back to where they were when Gadarfi was in power, let alone being better off.

These conflicts get a free pass, because these narratives from the other side are rarely mentioned here. The truth is Hillary Clinton (working for Obama) has blood on her hands as they destabalised and destroyed a nation. The UK contributed too. Arms made in factories here fuelled these two wars as well as the ongoing war in Yemin. Some make millions from these conflicts.

If there is one thing to take from this, its that western interventions with sophisticed weponary, applied in a so called 'controlled' civilised manner, has outcomes that are far from civilised. The history of recent western intervention, whether Afganistan, Iraq and even in Israel with arms supplied by the US (and france), is of abject failure. Maybe you can point to interventions in the Balkens conflict, and some African conflicts which might be exceptions that prove the rule.
 
Craig_J said:
I'd bet the overwhelming majority of attacks on Israel are occurring on the land that they are illegally occupying - not land that actually belongs to them. And you also can't see attacks against Israel 'outside the vacuum' of relentless occupation and transgression of international laws. Laws that were designed precisely to try and prevent such inflation of relations.

Where's the two state solution you have proposed? I genuinely don't think I've seen it. I didn't even think you supported any two sttae solution. You've consistently implied Palestinan lifes aren't worth anything.
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The one where we revert back to the original borders but on the event of the first Palestinian terrorist attack against Israeli citizens (which obviously won't happen as it's all about land and not antisemitism) all the land from the river to the sea (in the words of the Allahtards) belongs to Israel.

That'll work right?
 
scaramanga said:
The one where we revert back to the original borders but on the event of the first Palestinian terrorist attack against Israeli citizens (which obviously won't happen as it's all about land and not antisemitism) all the land from the river to the sea (in the words of the Allahtards) belongs to Israel.

That'll work right?
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I don't know whether that would work. It's likely impossible for a fair test to ever occur. The conditions were there for a fair test but it was never granted.

So now all we have is hypotheticals.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Our nation contributed to the Syrian war. 600,000 killed. 6 million displaced. Your elected government sent arms. Doesn't seem like you were excercised greatly though. Your post assuming Syria was a black and white affair is flawed. Yes Asad and his fathers Bathist party were brutal dictators. But pre-war they were also understood to be a relatively stable nation, and a case of better the devil you know. Asad was educated here in the UK and was seen as someone the west could at least work with, have a conversation with. But then it became a huge proxy war. US vs Russia. Isreal vs Iran etc With each power backing their side.

And the ramifications are are still playing out today. The refugree crisis and its contribution to Brexit. And when Russia invaded Ukraine, the US intelligence agencies were already '1-0 down'. Having effectively lost the proxy war in Syria, they weren't going to lose the next one. Or will they?

In Libya, we backed up America. We sent planes, drones, bombed, sent arms...and we helped to destroy much of a country. Gadarfi was killed but the nation destabiled, and decended into years of civil war. Pre-war it was a stable relatively sorted nation. Now Lybia is decades away from just getting back to where they were when Gadarfi was in power, let alone being better off.

These conflicts get a free pass, because these narratives from the other side are rarely mentioned here. The truth is Hillary Clinton (working for Obama) has blood on her hands as they destabalised and destroyed a nation. The UK contributed too. Arms made in factories here fuelled these two wars as well as the ongoing war in Yemin. Some make millions from these conflicts.

If there is one thing to take from this, its that western interventions with sophisticed weponary, applied in a so called 'controlled' civilised manner, has outcomes that are far from civilised. The history of recent western intervention, whether Afganistan, Iraq and even in Israel with arms supplied by the US (and france), is of abject failure. Maybe you can point to interventions in the Balkens conflict, and some African conflicts which might be exceptions that prove the rule.
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What I'm saying isn't black and white. I said you can say the Syrian government are scum, say Libya's rulers are and no one questions it. That doesn't mean any other particular groups are exempt from that category either.

I'm one of the least patritoic Brits you could ever encounter. I agree with you that Western governments do not help these situations and I would 100% have been in any stop the war coalition to prevent conflict breaking out.

You won't have seen me posting about the breakout if war in Syria in anyway because I would have been what. Like 16 or 17 when that happened?

Too busy masturbating and doing GCSE's to say anything of relevance.
 
Craig_J said:
I don't know whether that would work. It's likely impossible for a fair test to ever occur. The conditions were there for a fair test but it was never granted.

So now all we have is hypotheticals.
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I think that's a scenario Israel would take in a heartbeat. An absolute guarantee if safety for their civilians?

That's all they want.

I'm fairly sure Hamas won't go for it though.
 
Craig_J said:
What I'm saying isn't black and white. I said you can say the Syrian government are scum, say Libya's rulers are and no one questions it. That doesn't mean any other particular groups are exempt from that category either.

I'm one of the least patritoic Brits you could ever encounter. I agree with you that Western governments do not help these situations and I would 100% have been in any stop the war coalition to prevent conflict breaking out.

You won't have seen me posting about the breakout if war in Syria in anyway because I would have been what. Like 16 or 17 when that happened?

Too busy masturbating and doing GCSE's to say anything of relevance.
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I trust you're joking????

When I was 16, I had (for a few years already) been an active member of the Anti Nazi League, supported Rock Against Racism events, been on several CND marches, and paid close attention to international affairs. I suppose with an Irish Mum and an Iranian Dad, politics was always close by. I was also going to football, gigs, doing exams, tossing and shagging whenever I could BUT didn't prevent a keen interest and continued engagement in world affairs. Which continues to this day! Not as much tossing mind, and been married nearly 27 years (happily I must add)...
 
thfcsteff said:
I trust you're joking????

When I was 16, I had (for a few years already) been an active member of the Anti Nazi League, supported Rock Against Racism events, been on several CND marches, and paid close attention to international affairs. I suppose with an Irish Mum and an Iranian Dad, politics was always close by. I was also going to football, gigs, doing exams, tossing and shagging whenever I could BUT didn't prevent a keen interest and continued engagement in world affairs. Which continues to this day! Not as much tossing mind, and been married nearly 27 years (happily I must add)...
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Good luck trying to find anything like that within 20 miles of the small market town in Suffolk I am from.

I was less engaged in issues then as well but if I was engaged it would be difficult for me to afford to go anywhere to make a difference.
 
Craig_J said:
Good luck trying to find anything like that within 20 miles of the small market town in Suffolk I am from.

I was less engaged in issues then as well but if I was engaged it would be difficult for me to afford to go anywhere to make a difference.
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Understood TBF...we took family camping trips to Dunwich Heath near Leiston, and I can visualize the scenario for you in fairness.
 
thfcsteff said:
I trust you're joking????

When I was 16, I had (for a few years already) been an active member of the Anti Nazi League, supported Rock Against Racism events, been on several CND marches, and paid close attention to international affairs. I suppose with an Irish Mum and an Iranian Dad, politics was always close by. I was also going to football, gigs, doing exams, tossing and shagging whenever I could BUT didn't prevent a keen interest and continued engagement in world affairs. Which continues to this day! Not as much tossing mind, and been married nearly 27 years (happily I must add)...
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I'm with @Craig_J here.

I spent my time having fun when I was a kid too.
 
scaramanga said:
I'm with @Craig_J here.

I spent my time having fun when I was a kid too.
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Makes a change!

I've withdrawn from this because I've got tons of Uni work to do and it will always be circular.

Though I might be petulant sometimes I do understand both points of views and why Israel exists. It's complicated and maybe unresolvable.

Hopefully some day a Palestinian state is recognised, And Palestine/Israel [in no implied order] are able to move towards more moderate and tolerant governments who can begin to cede to each others wants and presence.

I am sorry if I offend anyone with alternative opinions and do appreciate you all as posters.

I notice it will be my 12th GG anniversary in 5 days time.

Thank you to Scara for letting people say what they want.

Particularly as I only arrived here because I committed the heinous crime of asking why they were deleting anti-Stratford posts on COYS and was subsequently banned.

(the most power hungry bunch of fascists I've ever come across)
 
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