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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

I'd also like to put in a claim for English people to be able to reclaim Normandy, Saxony and Rome as we have clear ancestry which is more recent to those lands than Israeli's have to the middle east.

We should be allowed to push aside all those who live there now because it was ours.
 
Craig_J said:
Personally as a human being who is descended from Ethiopians I would like to be able to have my own country put in Ethiopia so that we can claim what was ours.

Forget what's going on now and the fact my ancestors long left that area. I want to be able to focus on thousands of years ago and the fact that as a human we were there first.
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Did they write a book about it 5000 years ago that should forever be used to decide right or wrong?
 
Jordinho said:
Did they write a book about it 5000 years ago that should forever be used to decide right or wrong?
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Sadly there was no book published but I think there's a cave painting somewhere which kinda looked like someone leaving and coming back.

So guess must mean we were destined to remove the Ethiopians and take back what is rightfully ours.
 
scaramanga said:
I suspect you could wander off into the uninhabited (and largely uninhabitable) parts and live without anyone noticing or caring.
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Not exactly what we are talking about though is it? Claiming Sovereignty over it rather than just inhabiting it. You do agree though that if I lived there the land would be inhabited though, right? That is at least a start.
 
Lost Mango said:
Not relevant if you left by means other than your choice 70 years ago.
Yes relevant if you left by means other than your choice 2000 years ago.
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Yep. In this situation the fact Jewish people left 2,000 years ago and showed no interest in returning outweighs the last generation

I'm sure Scara is also in favour of handing Spain back to the Islamic caliphate that ruled it for hundreds of years.
 
In a nutshell both the Israelis and the Palestinians believe they have valid claims to the land. Never gonna happen but I think Israel giving some of the land back would be an olive branch. On another note, this conflict is one of the best arguments for the creation of Israel. With all the antisemitism in the world, it must be one of the only places on earth where the Jews feel relatively safe barring the next attack from hamas.
 
Craig_J said:
Yep. In this situation the fact Jewish people left 2,000 years ago and showed no interest in returning outweighs the last generation

I'm sure Scara is also in favour of handing Spain back to the Islamic caliphate that ruled it for hundreds of years.
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Is this relevant when Isreal was given to Jews by the British? Isn’t there more to this than - you used to live here 2,000 years ago? Seems to be a fixation by some around this point idk why.

I thought Isreal is more ‘justified’ by Jewish people not having any nation to call home. And having spent millennia being booted out of one nation after another. Suffering some of the most fervent discrimination known to mankind.

You know what makes me sad about this? That it seems like if you’re a Muslim you auto-hate Isreal. And if you’re this right wing Israeli government you think you can bludgeon Hamas, instead of building bridges with Palestine and breaking down barriers.
 
Craig_J said:
So why does abandoning it intentionally matter? Is that relevant?
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It really doesn't - just responding to the suggestion that they'd left the place. If you're after relevance you should check with the person who brought it up.
 
Craig_J said:
I'd also like to put in a claim for English people to be able to reclaim Normandy, Saxony and Rome as we have clear ancestry which is more recent to those lands than Israeli's have to the middle east.

We should be allowed to push aside all those who live there now because it was ours.
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Sure. If you have a bigger army you can - just go ahead.
 
Lost Mango said:
Not exactly what we are talking about though is it? Claiming Sovereignty over it rather than just inhabiting it. You do agree though that if I lived there the land would be inhabited though, right? That is at least a start.
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Not really inhabited to any level that matters. Put a city there, clean water, transportation, etc. That's inhabited.

Having a tent on one bit of dirt is no different to having a tent on a different bit of dirt.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is this relevant when Isreal was given to Jews by the British? Isn’t there more to this than - you used to live here 2,000 years ago? Seems to be a fixation by some around this point idk why.

I thought Isreal is more ‘justified’ by Jewish people not having any nation to call home. And having spent millennia being booted out of one nation after another. Suffering some of the most fervent discrimination known to mankind.

You know what makes me sad about this? That it seems like if you’re a Muslim you auto-hate Isreal. And if you’re this right wing Israeli government you think you can bludgeon Hamas, instead of building bridges with Palestine and breaking down barriers.
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Romani people also do not have their own home but no one will ever call for them to have their own country.

If Israel wanted the Holy Land so much there was always room over 2,000 years to return.

There's no fixation around you used to live here 2,000 years ago.

There's fixation that Palestinians used to live here 60 years ago. There's fixation around the Palestinian's grandma and grandad used to live here before they were turfed out.

There's fixation that since their grandma and grandad were turfed out their mum and dad were turfed out further. =

There's fixation round the point that Israeli settlers are trying to stone you to death because they deem you uncivilised.

There's fixation around the point that after all this inter generational trauma the only avenue for 'rehabilitation' (quite an insulting way of saying you should just forget that we annihilated generations of your people, but lets roll with it) would be to have a normal society, with normal jobs to go to and normal rates of employment - but that this is time and time again refused by Israel.

Israel evicted your gramps. They evicted mum and dad. They evicted you and want to stone you. They do not recognise your right to self-govern.
They do not recognise your right to form your own country and engage in the globalised economy. They do not recognise your right to manage the affairs of the meagre 50% of land that they have spared from what internationally drawn boundaries outline.

And these people are supposed to behave normally?

This isn't ancient history. It's about what people today are going through, coupled with what the people who raised them went through.

There were many other ways to address these issues without forming a fascist, racist state. Forming fascist racist states is always avoidable and never excusable.
 
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The formation of Israel is complicated.

The actions of Israel much less so.

Maybe if for one moment Israel had attempted to abide by international law then it would be much easier to empathise with the fact Israel had done all it could to make peace.

The fact is the moment Israel was formed it immediately violated international law and started grabbing land.

I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do about it. I didn't make them immediately occupy beyond that granted to them.

When Israel decided to become a thing it should've been done with full knowledge that they would have to deal with some very angry people.

Personally I think it understandable that if you are kicked out of your own home and told to make way that there's gonna be anger.

If there was a genuine feeling amongst Israeli's that having a country of own in that precise region was absolutely necessary then you have to accept that the trade off to that is there's gonna be backlash. And that for those made homeless it's gonna take a lot to calm them.

To then immediately arrive and start pushing Palestinians back further and further over the course of 60 years...

No chance was ever given to peace. The borders were immediately violated. Israel never gave up anything since and till this day they stone arabs. Chant death to arabs.

I am not surprised they are angry if that's what you consider to be 'diplomacy'
 
By Israeli law they are not equal. They can never be equal.

The law says only Jews have rights to self-determination.

There are Jewish pathways and Arab pathways.

Jews are supreme. All others are both inferior and undesirable.

Just imagine that laws were passed in a western nation saying that:

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of [UK/France/Germany] is unique to the [White/British/French/German/European] people."

Israel IS an apartheid fascist state. It copies German Nazi laws and Nazi approaches to minority persons.
 
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Craig_J said:
Romani people also do not have their own home but no one will ever call for them to have their own country.

If Israel wanted the Holy Land so much there was always room over 2,000 years to return.

There's no fixation around you used to live here 2,000 years ago.

There's fixation that Palestinians used to live here 60 years ago. There's fixation around the Palestinian's grandma and grandad used to live here before they were turfed out.

There's fixation that since their grandma and grandad were turfed out their mum and dad were turfed out further. =

There's fixation round the point that Israeli settlers are trying to stone you to death because they deem you uncivilised.

There's fixation around the point that after all this inter generational trauma the only avenue for 'rehabilitation' (quite an insulting way of saying you should just forget that we annihilated generations of your people, but lets roll with it) would be to have a normal society, with normal jobs to go to and normal rates of employment - but that this is time and time again refused by Israel.

Israel evicted your gramps. They evicted mum and dad. They evicted you and want to stone you. They do not recognise your right to self-govern.
They do not recognise your right to form your own country and engage in the globalised economy. They do not recognise your right to manage the affairs of the meagre 50% of land that they have spared from what internationally drawn boundaries outline.

And these people are supposed to behave normally?

This isn't ancient history. It's about what people today are going through, coupled with what the people who raised them went through.

There were many other ways to address these issues without forming a fascist, racist state. Forming fascist racist states is always avoidable and never excusable.
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What I take from that is you are fixated.

I think everyone is upset by losses of lives on both side. Both the actions of Hammas and the Israeli government are reprehensible. Though I suspect you think Hamas' actions should be understood in the context of Israels actions. Because you are clearly baised towards one side.

Some seem football supporter-like towards their side, blinkered to any nauances or semblence of understanding towards the other side. A fixation with anti-Israel. I only see a similar vitriolic approach from one area of the other side - the Israeli right wing. Why would anyone wish to ratchet up conflict and stoke more voilence and terror? I don't get it. Rather than call for peace, understanding and building bridges, people enflame, enrage and fuel more conflict. Those people - on both sides - are the problem. A vast majority favour conciliation, desculation and peace. A few nutcases cause misery to the majority.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember you being exercised by the horrors of the Syrian war. Or the ongoing state of Libia. Where our nation contributed to the wrongs. What is it about this conflict that makes you especially partisan?
 
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Jurgen the German said:
In a nutshell both the Israelis and the Palestinians believe they have valid claims to the land. Never gonna happen but I think Israel giving some of the land back would be an olive branch. On another note, this conflict is one of the best arguments for the creation of Israel. With all the antisemitism in the world, it must be one of the only places on earth where the Jews feel relatively safe barring the next attack from hamas.
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Maybe its time to treat them like 5year olds.
You either learn to share or neither of you can have it.
Turn it into a massive F1 circuit.
 
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