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Putin & Russia

SpurMeUp said:
I don't have contact with them myself. But I've been out to Russia numerous times. We won a contract from FIFA for the world cup, and was out in Moscow and St Petersburg numerous times in 2018 I think it was.

The fascinating thing is looking at these issues from both sides. There are two narratives. Two histories. When we invade a nation like Iraq it is always supported largely by our establishment, and the narrative within the media is mainly partisan. The history and details are important and are often used to support that invasion. When its another country who we are in opposition to, we don't consider the history and the details so much. But as the old saying goes, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. So we should understand context and previous successes and failures. We should at least see things from both sides. And then take action accordingly.
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If you want to look at grievances then surely the UK has a lot more reason than most, twice Putin has deployed chemical weapons on UK soil. In Salisbury I think there was enough novichok to in theory kill thousands of people. Then he took the tinkle by claiming the 2 suspects were there for a tourist visit.

He's also deployed chemical weapons to kill dissent with Navalny.

He wasn't goaded into any of these things, he's obsessed with power and will do anything to keep it, I suspect as he gets older like most people with that type of mind he's also starting to get paranoid and is less and less trusting of anyone so only hears what he wants to from those around him.
 
Yiddo said:
This is a good watch.

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Thanks Yiddo, I agree it is a good watch. The first 9 minutes are a bit ummmm* but from 9 minutes onwards, when he mentions oil, that is spot on. It is all about the trillions of dollars of oil just off the coast of Ukraine.

*It feels a bit 1945 to worry about the land bridges and defensible positions of Russia, as though we would be driving across from London to Moscow in a Willy's Jeep. Nowadays we would just swoop in with intercontinental missiles drones satellites planes freakin laser beams Facebook submarines creamcheese bombers helicopters celebrities turncoats spies deals kickbacks and George Clooney
 
Bullet said:
Thanks Yiddo, I agree it is a good watch. The first 9 minutes are a bit ummmm* but from 9 minutes onwards, when he mentions oil, that is spot on. It is all about the trillions of dollars of oil just off the coast of Ukraine.

*It feels a bit 1945 to worry about the land bridges and defensible positions of Russia, as though we would be driving across from London to Moscow in a Willy's Jeep. Nowadays we would just swoop in with intercontinental missiles drones satellites planes freakin laser beams Facebook submarines creamcheese bombers helicopters celebrities turncoats spies deals kickbacks and George Clooney
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I agree some of it is a bit useless but its an ideal video for a rough crash course in some of the history behind it all, keeps it simple to understand.
 
P.D. said:
If you want to look at grievances then surely the UK has a lot more reason than most, twice Putin has deployed chemical weapons on UK soil. In Salisbury I think there was enough novichok to in theory kill thousands of people. Then he took the tinkle by claiming the 2 suspects were there for a tourist visit.

He's also deployed chemical weapons to kill dissent with Navalny.

He wasn't goaded into any of these things, he's obsessed with power and will do anything to keep it, I suspect as he gets older like most people with that type of mind he's also starting to get paranoid and is less and less trusting of anyone so only hears what he wants to from those around him.
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its a good post. But I’m not sure the relevance to my post? Is there anyone who thinks Putins actions are acceptable? Rather than state the same as everyone else I’ve given some alternative perspectives and histories.

The greatest concern for me is that NATO arms and pressure leaves Putin in a desperate situation where his only option is a wild move. I don’t know how you manage that. By way of analogy, in chess you can leave your opponent with only one winning move. Every other move loses them the game. They play that one move and win, or lose. It is not always the best strategy in chess as it can force your opponent into playing the winning move by a process of elimination. Hopefully there is some kind of pathway left for de-esculation.
 
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Isn’t it interesting how war makes people partisan. When the stakes are increased to life or death, freedom or oppression, nuances are replaced with black and white - with us or against us.

Yet, there are many hypocrisies or double standards. Europe shunned Syrian refugees but are moved by Ukrainians and welcome them as refugees. Facebook breaks its own rules to allow threats of violence against Russian soldiers. We shut down Russian owned football clubs, yet welcome a Saudi state-owned club, when their state have been waging war in Yemen for 7 years with hundreds of thousands dead. Is it because the Saudis buy the arms from us that we’re seemingly on their side?
 
Yiddo said:
This is a good watch.

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From 2015, but this is a great lecture more about the causes of the Ukraine Crisis by someone probably more credible than any of us here. Interestingly suggests that Nato is a waning force as the world pivots towards Asia then.

Trivia: Putin advocated for an economic rescue package for Ukraine which the EU rejected in 2013.

 
SpurMeUp said:
its a good post. But I’m not sure the relevance to my post? Is there anyone who thinks Putins actions are acceptable? Rather than state the same as everyone else I’ve given some alternative perspectives and histories.

The greatest concern for me is that NATO arms and pressure leaves Putin in a desperate situation where his only option is a wild move. I don’t know how you manage that. By way of analogy, in chess you can leave your opponent with only one winning move. Every other move loses them the game. They play that one move and win, or lose. It is not always the best strategy in chess as it can force your opponent into playing the winning move by a process of elimination. Hopefully there is some kind of pathway left for de-esculation.
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What desperate situation.

NATO is a defence pact. Every single country on this planet other than Russia could join up and the threat to Russia would still be zero.

All NATO membership does is stop the Russian Tom Cruise from attacking other countries, which is all the more reason why we should be doing everything we can to get all the countries around Russia to sign up.
 
metalgear said:
From 2015, but this is a great lecture more about the causes of the Ukraine Crisis by someone probably more credible than any of us here. Interestingly suggests that Nato is a waning force as the world pivots towards Asia then.

Trivia: Putin advocated for an economic rescue package for Ukraine which the EU rejected in 2013.

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Mearsheimer is a go to source for adding academic credibility to Russian propaganda.
 

Then you won't like seeing how he critiques the US liberal democracy here and explainds how Russian Propaganda is a response to US or Western propaganda.
 
SpurMeUp said:
its a good post. But I’m not sure the relevance to my post? Is there anyone who thinks Putins actions are acceptable? Rather than state the same as everyone else I’ve given some alternative perspectives and histories.

The greatest concern for me is that NATO arms and pressure leaves Putin in a desperate situation where his only option is a wild move. I don’t know how you manage that. By way of analogy, in chess you can leave your opponent with only one winning move. Every other move loses them the game. They play that one move and win, or lose. It is not always the best strategy in chess as it can force your opponent into playing the winning move by a process of elimination. Hopefully there is some kind of pathway left for de-esculation.
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You said to look at it from 2 sides, I'm looking at it from the UK side and some of the grievances the UK might have.

Why is his only option a "wild move", as you said Russia have had it good in the last few years. They've been able to bomb, invade, assassinate without an repercussions. They have a huge sovereign wealth fund, living standards are up, oligarchs can cruise round the world doing whatever they like. Why not just enjoy what they have, there's no need to invade. Ukraine have shown no intent to invade or bomb them.
 
P.D. said:
You said to look at it from 2 sides, I'm looking at it from the UK side and some of the grievances the UK might have.

Why is his only option a "wild move", as you said Russia have had it good in the last few years. They've been able to bomb, invade, assassinate without an repercussions. They have a huge sovereign wealth fund, living standards are up, oligarchs can cruise round the world doing whatever they like. Why not just enjoy what they have, there's no need to invade. Ukraine have shown no intent to invade or bomb them.
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I don’t think anyone disagrees with you. How we got here, what people in Russia think and what the west can do now are all far more complex issues.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I don’t think anyone disagrees with you. How we got here, what people in Russia think and what the west can do now are all far more complex issues.
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It really isn’t complex at all. An autocratic, imperialist dictator is waging war on a peaceful neighbouring country, commiting both war crimes and crimes against humanity in the process. There is no excuse for this.

For further reference see the 1930s.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Isn’t it interesting how war makes people partisan. When the stakes are increased to life or death, freedom or oppression, nuances are replaced with black and white - with us or against us.

Yet, there are many hypocrisies or double standards. Europe shunned Syrian refugees but are moved by Ukrainians and welcome them as refugees. Facebook breaks its own rules to allow threats of violence against Russian soldiers. We shut down Russian owned football clubs, yet welcome a Saudi state-owned club, when their state have been waging war in Yemen for 7 years with hundreds of thousands dead. Is it because the Saudis buy the arms from us that we’re seemingly on their side?
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Nope just this war means we will pay more for heating our homes.
 
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