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Putin & Russia

All this blood shed over some gas / oil what makes it worse is this is the real reason behind most wars.
Putting aside who is right or wrong... Who benefits the most from this conflict?

For the US and the oil producing countries they are paid better for doing nothing.

Europe is going to face a complicated relationship with Russia for decades and will be the biggest losers with higher costs.

Russian may have lost the European markets, but time will tell if they will be able to reward their friends like India and China. The global economy has been shifting eastwards with the rise of China but with Russia's full backing it may accelerate.

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See above. It is not that simple. Yanukovych was a president elected in a means that international observers felt was free and fair. Nato nations played their part destabilising the situation in Ukraine in 2014 leading to the overthrow of the elected president. There are no easy solutions. But if you knew that past interventions in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq all failed to bring about positive changes to the nation in question, and lead to mass death, including tens of thousands of children, would you still fire ahead with it?

He also went against the wishes of his people and didn't sign the agreement with the EU, no doubt he was told to do this by Russia. This is what sparked his removal from what I remember.
 
He also went against the wishes of his people and didn't sign the agreement with the EU, no doubt he was told to do this by Russia. This is what sparked his removal from what I remember.

In most democracies that is dealt with at the next election.
 
He also went against the wishes of his people and didn't sign the agreement with the EU, no doubt he was told to do this by Russia. This is what sparked his removal from what I remember.

See the EU is at it again. Always at the heart of the trouble like a mouthy teen in the dunce class at school.


This post was only halfway joking.
 
He also went against the wishes of his people and didn't sign the agreement with the EU, no doubt he was told to do this by Russia. This is what sparked his removal from what I remember.
That's the weird thing about history. If you ask most people when WWII started, they'll day Hitler invaded Poland in 1939.
But he annexed Austria in 1934, then again in 1938. It was 18 months after that he invaded Poland.
I'm pretty sure the Austrian and Czechs was say it started way before 1939.
 
In most democracies that is dealt with at the next election.

Ideally yes but politicians are accountable to the people and they didn't want him there, it was also a protest against general corruption and abusing government powers as well.

Don't forget he agreed to a new agreement and fresh elections but then fled before it could happen scared to face his own people.
 
Ukraine is not in NATO. It moving toward NATO is what Russia is against. You can see NATOs expansion all around Russia as a form of empire building. It does not legitimise Russias actions, but the status quo and ‘natural order’ was abandoned long ago. Behind the scenes Russia and the US/EU have been playing a tug of war over Ukraine for over a decade. And Ukraine was part of the same nation as Russia not all that long ago. So while this doesn’t justify Putins actions, it is more complex than say hitler invading France. Russia was allied with Ukraine when Yanukovych was the democratically elected president. The west, predominantly the US, funded revolutionary groups and helped instigate a revolution that occurred in 2014. Yes Yanukovych was corrupt and beholden to Putin but he was elected by a process that the international community observed as being free and fair. Ukraine had peace and cheap Russian energy, but it was under the wing of Russia. The EU were complicit in undermining this relative order too. See Jack Straws comments who was the foreign secretary around the time - essentially saying the way the west tried to pull these former Soviet states away from Russia and intervene - could have been handled better. And that is a common view. Western interventions completely changed the Russian-west dynamic. It siwed the seeds of this war (and possibly Trump and Brexit interventions by Russia) and restarted a new kind of Cold War. NATO vs Russia are now two forces at war. Literally.

With all that in mind, have a look at Syria. The US, the UK, France etc all put huge sums into arming (predominately jihadist) groups to fight Assad. Did the west think Assad was all that bad at the start of the conflict? No not really. Western educated, a fan of liberal ideals and education, he was seen as a leader we could work with in a very unstable region. Many thought the UK could back him at the outset of the conflict. But politics and alliances formed. It was Iran + Russia backing Assad so the West countered arming Islamic State and the PKK. The upshot? Probably well over half a million dead. Destruction of a nation. And no actual ‘regime change’ (plus what a misnomer that idea can be: look at Libya where we instigated a ‘regime change’ - its now a lawless failed state. A total mess). In Syria fighting continues to this day, with Assad slowly defeating the islamists who are still armed with US etc weapons.

Ukraine has its unique history, and providing some arms so Russia can not walk into the country freely does make sense. But the Stop the War approach is to de-escalate. Not intensify and add arms and fuel to the fire. Stop the War campaigned against the Iraq and Afghan invasion, against Syrian and Libyan involvement and in each of these wars, hindsight has shown them to have been correct.

What do we do now?
1. NATO is not an ‘empire’ but a defence force.
2. Russia invading a non NATO member country is the perfect evidence of why countries need to join an organisation like NATO
3. If Russia and NATO were at war then Russia would be pulverized. They are no match for NATO. All Russia have is their Nuclear threat.
4. That is why Russia are so against Ukraine joining NATO, They know as soon as that happens there is never any hope of Ukraine ever being under Russian control again.
 
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4. That is why Russia are so against Ukraine joining NATO, They know as soon as that happens there is never any hope of Ukraine ever being under Russian control again.

The West nor the East give a single fudge about Ukraine. It is simply a strategic landmass for their objectives.

Point 3, well if push comes to shove and they use it - well we're all fudged, so go and do what you regret never doing.
 
The West nor the East give a single fudge about Ukraine. It is simply a strategic landmass for their objectives.

Point 3, well if push comes to shove and they use it - well we're all fudged, so go and do what you regret never doing.
There's a "your mum" joke in there somewhere....
 
So are we just going to watch LIVE as Russia murder civilians and kill children and *struggle cuddle* women for 2 or 3 weeks until there is almost nobody left and THEN step in to do something about it?

This is like watching a fight in a car park where one guy is lying unconscious on the floor whilst the other guy kicks and kicks and kicks him in the head... and we won't step in until we think he might die.
 
1. NATO is not an ‘empire’ but a defence force.
2. Russia invading a non NATO member country is the perfect evidence of why countries need to join an organisation like NATO
3. If Russia and NATO were at war then Russia would be pulverized. They are no match for NATO. All Russia have is their Nuclear threat.
4. That is why Russia are so against Ukraine joining NATO, They know as soon as that happens there is never any hope of Ukraine ever being under Russian control again.

Did I say NATO was an empire? Nope. But you do recognise that Russia finds NATO a threat. It creates an 'us' and 'them' situation - NATO has historically been a US funded/led coalition versus the Soviets. If Russia was building a political group of nations around the US, say Mexico, Cuba, Jamacia, Venezula etc with the expression of arming and fighting against any US intervention, of course, the US would not be comfortable with it. You appreciate that?

Many consider NATOs expansion to have been 'empire-like'. A distant nation across the Atlantic bearing responsibility for the military security of another nation. Some believe that makes the US the head of a quasi empire. Have a look at this piece from 1995 warning how NATO expansion in eastern Europe (once soviet) could instigate a new cold war. https://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/05/opinion/the-nato-empire.html Smart people had an inkling of what could and has happened. Stupid people don't learn from history and commit arms and people's lives needlessly. You don't think that nuclear weapons can pulverise?
 
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So are we just going to watch LIVE as Russia murder civilians and kill children and *struggle cuddle* women for 2 or 3 weeks until there is almost nobody left and THEN step in to do something about it?

This is like watching a fight in a car park where one guy is lying unconscious on the floor whilst the other guy kicks and kicks and kicks him in the head... and we won't step in until we think he might die.

Only we'll threaten each day to take the assailants wallet and never get round to it...
 
Ideally yes but politicians are accountable to the people and they didn't want him there, it was also a protest against general corruption and abusing government powers as well.

Don't forget he agreed to a new agreement and fresh elections but then fled before it could happen scared to face his own people.

The reality has lots of shades of grey, is complex and nuanced. In hindsight the biggest issue Ukrainians had with Yanukovych wasn't his politics - he was playing the EU, IMF and Russia off each other seeking the best deals for Ukraine - it was the corruption. This gives a more detailed account of the messy history https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea Russia wanted to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence and offered better terms on a loan and cheap energy.

Like most post-colonial nations the transition into sovereignty is complex. The British Commonwealth was probably one of the more stable unions despite being so spread out across the globe. Would Ukraine have been better off working with Russia as it stabilised on its own two-feet? In hindsight probably yes. It takes time to develop the structures of an independent state. In the decades following independence, having stability and consistency is vital.
 
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