Putin & Russia

[monkeybarry]

What odds do you give to any such event being democratic and free of Russian involvement?

I don't think people tend to vote against the guy with a tank parked outside the front of their house.

Agreed. By at least an election, even if a highly influenced one, would at least deliver a democratic mandate.

 

[monkeybarry]

No brick sherlock. So why should Ukraine be free to choose who governs it but not the UK. Funny position for a remoaner to take.

Perhaps if the Ukrainians don't like Russia ruling them you will keep demanding referendums until they like being ruled by someone else.

Erm.....the UK is free to......we literally have a vote about it every four years...

Your point was that the Ukraine shouldn't and that Russia should be able to just roll the tanks in and take it over because you consider Ukraine racist.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Erm.....the UK is free to......we literally have a vote about it every four years...

Your point was that the Ukraine shouldn't and that Russia should be able to just roll the tanks in and take it over because you consider Ukraine racist.

Jeez it completely went over your head, the sarcasm didn’t. People like you accused people in the UK of being racist voting for independence. I am saying that clearly the Ukrainians that are against Russia and want to be free must therefore be racist. Terrible evil people wanting to be free and all that.

I would think you would be on Russia's side. The subjugation of people being your thing and all.

 

[monkeybarry]

Jeez it completely went over your head, the sarcasm didn’t. People like you accused people in the UK of being racist voting for independence. I am saying that clearly the Ukrainians that are against Russia and want to be free must therefore be racist. Terrible evil people wanting to be free and all that.

I would think you would be on Russia's side. The subjugation of people being your thing and all.

A basic understanding of what a sovereign state is contradicts all the above.
Freedom of choice is Liberty.

 

[braineclipse]

Jeez it completely went over your head, the sarcasm didn’t. People like you accused people in the UK of being racist voting for independence. I am saying that clearly the Ukrainians that are against Russia and want to be free must therefore be racist. Terrible evil people wanting to be free and all that.

I would think you would be on Russia's side. The subjugation of people being your thing and all.

So what you're saying is that there was no racist motivation behind brexit votes then?

I can't quite get my head around if this is just a way to make a point about previous discussions about brexit and racism or an actual point about Ukraine.

Whatever you think about governments in European countries including the UK you think Putin is better in any way shape or form? I find that view difficult to understand if so.

Stand by and do nothing as a sovereign country gets invaded would be your approach? For a while I thought it was widely agreed that sovereign countries being invaded was a bad thing and should be resisted based on... Mostly all of the reasons.

 

[Trixster]

Agreed. By at least an election, even if a highly influenced one, would at least deliver a democratic mandate.

Crimea held elections after the annexation, 90% of the populace felt strongly attached to Russia and they always have even since the hand-off by Khrushchev (most of the Tatars left during/after the various wars), and while I have no doubts it was just a show - they voted to become a Republic in Russia. The West refuses to acknowledge this, likewise with the one they did in Georgia, and they would refuse the same for Donbass as well so we'd get nowhere

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So what you're saying is that there was no racist motivation behind brexit votes then?

I can't quite get my head around if this is just a way to make a point about previous discussions about brexit and racism or an actual point about Ukraine.

Whatever you think about governments in European countries including the UK you think Putin is better in any way shape or form? I find that view difficult to understand if so.

Stand by and do nothing as a sovereign country gets invaded would be your approach? For a while I thought it was widely agreed that sovereign countries being invaded was a bad thing and should be resisted based on... Mostly all of the reasons.

I can not say why people voted for Brexit, only why I did.

I think Putin is very dangerous but if the remoaners taught us anything it is that those who want self determination are obviously racist.
Sovereignty itself is very racist and to be demeaned. We saw that this week in the politics thread when people were talking about the importing of foie gras. Sovereignty and wanting it is for the stupid right? This has been the central argument to your lot for years. Be consistent gents.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Crimea held elections after the annexation, 90% of the populace felt strongly attached to Russia and they always have even since the hand-off by Khrushchev (most of the Tatars left during/after the various wars), and while I have no doubts it was just a show - they voted to become a Republic in Russia. The West refuses to acknowledge this, likewise with the one they did in Georgia, and they would refuse the same for Donbass as well so we'd get nowhere

The Eastern side of Latvia I am pretty sure would do the same.

 

[scaramanga]

Crimea held elections after the annexation, 90% of the populace felt strongly attached to Russia and they always have even since the hand-off by Khrushchev (most of the Tatars left during/after the various wars), and while I have no doubts it was just a show - they voted to become a Republic in Russia. The West refuses to acknowledge this, likewise with the one they did in Georgia, and they would refuse the same for Donbass as well so we'd get nowhere

90% of the population voted for the people with tanks parked on their lawns.

Not really a surprise that, is it?

 

[scaramanga]

For @Trixster and anyone else struggling to get to grips with the stages involved in independence, it goes as follows:

1. State wants independence
2. State votes on independence
3. State is independent

You know what's missing from all of those stages? Russian tanks.

Russian tanks involved before, during or after any of those stages makes the entire process illegitimate.

 

[Trixster]

90% of the population voted for the people with tanks parked on their lawns.

Not really a surprise that, is it?

Not really a surprise that you're ignorant to the views of the majority of the population in Crimea, is it?
Or you have family there too?

 

[Rorschach]

90% of the population voted for the people with tanks parked on their lawns.

Not really a surprise that, is it?

The referendum is regarded as a sham. I'll need to double-check but I'm sure I read there was no status quo option in the referendum i.e. remain in Ukraine. Also, I think only 4% voted for the separatist party in the previous election which tells a tale I would think.

 

[scaramanga]

Not really a surprise that you're ignorant to the views of the majority of the population in Crimea, is it?
Or you have family there too?

See my post above about Russian tanks.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Good on him.

If the EU and the Europeans had not been so positively beastly towards us I might feel differently. Not enough was made on our side in negotiations about how much we have spent on the defense of Europe. It is an actual disgrace that our Governments do not see how little we get back for that.

In what way have the EU and Europeans been ‘beastly’ towards us?

 

[Trixster]

See my post above about Russian tanks.

I did, I was thinking whether or not to bite tbh.

Crimea was largely ground based troops securing various infrastructure and military bases, I don't recall the use of tanks or any large-scale movement of troops when it happened.
I believe that Putin had a lot of troops doing "exercises" again on Ukraine's border, but there were away from the South and used as a distraction to his other plans.

I'm sure Germany and other pollsters have surveyed Crimean's since the event, and the results have been in favour of being part of Russia again.
Maybe you should take a holiday there and ask the real people - it really is a lovely place.

 

[Finney Is Back]

No brick sherlock. So why should Ukraine be free to choose who governs it but not the UK. Funny position for a remoaner to take.

Perhaps if the Ukrainians don't like Russia ruling them you will keep demanding referendums until they like being ruled by someone else.

Eh?… The UK have always been free to choose who governs us.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Eh?… The UK have always been free to choose who governs us.

No we are not. A very focal section gave constantly accused us of being racist for voting a certain way.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

In what way have the EU and Europeans been ‘beastly’ towards us?

Well I would say Macron our nearest neighbour getting involved in our elections by telling people to over turn the referendum result. Yet some of you issues when Putin gets involved in other countries business.

Either both are wrong or neither is wrong. Which is it gents?

 

[scaramanga]

I did, I was thinking whether or not to bite tbh.

Crimea was largely ground based troops securing various infrastructure and military bases, I don't recall the use of tanks or any large-scale movement of troops when it happened.
I believe that Putin had a lot of troops doing "exercises" again on Ukraine's border, but there were away from the South and used as a distraction to his other plans.

I'm sure Germany and other pollsters have surveyed Crimean's since the event, and the results have been in favour of being part of Russia again.
Maybe you should take a holiday there and ask the real people - it really is a lovely place.

If you want to swap the word tanks for troops, that's fine. It doesn't alter the point.

What proportion of French people do you think were in the Resistance? I'd guess at less than 1%. That doesn't mean French people were happy with being invaded, it just meant that most people preferred going along with it to having their families shot.

 

[SpurMeUp]

In what way have the EU and Europeans been ‘beastly’ towards us?

They let us eat foie gras.