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Politics, politics, politics

ringo said:
I agree with you that, on the face of it, it seems wrong that someone who has done what she has, and expresses no remorse, then wishes to return because she wishes to take advantages of services which would not be available if we had a regime here like the one that she was supporting. However, as I understand it, as British citizen she has a right to return, and the Secretary of state while expressing a sentiment, is not legally correct and has no power to prevent her returning. She would, of course, be prosecuted here subsequently, if she had committed a crime.

But my main points were 1) We have to respect the rule of law, otherwise we are back to Hobbes' "nasty, brutish and short" life. 2) Things are often more complex than social and mainstream media would have us believe.
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I think we should respect the law. And have no problem with point 1 and 2 and agree we do not know full story as media do follow a narrative.

The Guy who beheaded the Brits and was eventually caught has said he wants to come home for me is the same thing. Made your choice it’s gone south now want to come back to the soft stance UK.

Legally right or wrong or not from a moral basis no they should not return here.
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Interesting, what would you say she is a victim of? Grooming?
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People don't like to admit they were wrong, but anyone who leaves a comfortable existance to live a barbaric medieval existance, where two of their babies die and friends are slaughtered, has to have been, in retrospect, duped to some degree. Brainwashed, groomed, whatever you wish to call it. The ISIS online brouchure wouldn't have mentioned that.
 
SpurMeUp said:
People don't like to admit they were wrong, but anyone who leaves a comfortable existance to live a barbaric medieval existance, where two of their babies die and friends are slaughtered, has to have been, in retrospect, duped to some degree. Brainwashed, groomed, whatever you wish to call it. The ISIS online brouchure wouldn't have mentioned that.
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TO be fair she said it was exactly as she imagined it would be.
 
I have noticed a pattern in my everyday life of people that are anti brexit who are also unduly tolerant and lenient towards terrorists. I think it is why a lot of people who I know who are pro brexit will not back down on our views. Obviously on the EU we are correct as history has already shown, but the is a feeling deep down that some of the people who are remain just have all the priorities wrong.

Just an observation from a handful of people I come into contact with at work and the coffee shop I go to in the lanes in Brighton about 3 times a week.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I have noticed a pattern in my everyday life of people that are anti brexit who are also unduly tolerant and lenient towards terrorists. I think it is why a lot of people who I know who are pro brexit will not back down on our views. Obviously on the EU we are correct as history has already shown, but the is a feeling deep down that some of the people who are remain just have all the priorities wrong.

Just an observation from a handful of people I come into contact with at work and the coffee shop I go to in the lanes in Brighton about 3 times a week.
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Well I'm glad that is sorted. It was beginning to get tedious.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Because she’s young stubborn and doesn’t want to say otherwise? She imagined losing 2 babies, her friends being killed? Maybe, but I doubt a 15 year old could imagine what being in the middle of a war zone in Syria would be like.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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No I know I am am just repeating what she said in her transcript. Nothing could prepare her thats for sure 100%

Whats strange though is the toughness she has left with, seeing that and hearing the things she heard and the death and severed heads and she says it is all just normal life, thats odd for me, I see videos of 9/11 and it gets to me.
 
Grays_1890 said:
No I know I am am just repeating what she said in her transcript. Nothing could prepare her thats for sure 400%

Whats strange though is the toughness she has left with, seeing that and hearing the things she heard and the death and severed heads and she says it is all just normal life, thats odd for me, I see videos of 9/11 and it gets to me.
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Wouldn't want to presume anything, but maybe you've left the bolshie confidence of youth behind :) She is still a teenager. If she said it was a shock, an aweful place, you're admitting you were wrong and with that you'd have the blood of two friends on your hands (and a lot more). Her mindset won't have reset she's still half or wholly going to be believing in this extreme ideal or cult. Which is of course problamatic.
 
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Personally, if she gets to a country where we have an embassy (i.e no risk is taken to extract her), I would bring her home. But then I'd put her in prison on terrorism charges, the same as any other militant. With perhaps the chance of parole in 5-10 years if she demonstrates that she has reformed.

It was actually seeing her dad interviewed on the news last night that gave me that pang of compassion.
 
ringo said:
They did involve breaking the law. However, while some people might be truly evil and deserving of the harshest punishment, do we think that this is the case here? Wouldn't it be better if the law was upheld and she became a useful and productive member of society. I'm sure she will be monitored and put through various reeducation programmes. But even if the outcome is not a good one, she still has rights. That is just the law. And as I said previously - maybe the law needs to be redrafted.
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Given that the sight of severed heads in bins apparently 'didn't faze her', I'm leaning towards yes.
 
SpurMeUp said:
A question: why aren't centrist politicians doing well anymore?
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I'm not sure there's anyone around I count as a centrist. The Blairites, Cameronites and Cleggites are all completely in the pocket of the market - they are Thatcher's children. Corbyn is obviously an old Trot. I don't see anyone around filling the social democrat-paternalist tory/keynesian/post-war consensus territory
 
This whole moral gonads is why NATO adversaries are for once united in wiping out ISIS in a far away war zone that has no rules.

Russia really don't want these people back 'home' and Western country's security services even less so - because it's not so easy to lock people up and throw away the key here. But a pregnant 19 year old? Very difficult morally to disown them. I would require some repentance and reform (within jail) before reintigration.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I have noticed a pattern in my everyday life of people that are anti brexit who are also unduly tolerant and lenient towards terrorists. I think it is why a lot of people who I know who are pro brexit will not back down on our views. Obviously on the EU we are correct as history has already shown, but the is a feeling deep down that some of the people who are remain just have all the priorities wrong.

Just an observation from a handful of people I come into contact with at work and the coffee shop I go to in the lanes in Brighton about 3 times a week.
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It's an interesting point. I think its shades of grey vs black and white. For what its worth I don't think the UK should take back jihadists. Maybe if they are reformed, but how do you know?

Brexit is presented as a simple in or out. This girl is presented the same. Let her in, leave her out. If you don't explore the issues more deeply, the 'right' answer is Out the EU (who would want external control of our nation?) and the girl has made her bed. You could say that fast judgment is effecient, quick, harsh but fair etc etc. But explore the shades of grey and complexities involved and maybe people come to another conclusion. It's why we have lengthy court cases to pass judgment and not say a King doing it who's more interested in having his custard and tart.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
But a pregnant 19 year old? Very difficult morally to disown them
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Yeh its harder because its been put on paper and reported. I can seperate the sentiment of her being 19 and up the brian clough because of the fact she was a member of ISIS and that outweights the rest of it, but thats just me.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Yeh its harder because its been put on paper and reported. I can seperate the sentiment of her being 19 and up the brian clough because of the fact she was a member of ISIS and that outweights the rest of it, but thats just me.
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Morally legally the pregnant bit shouldn't matter right? The fact she was 15 and was radicalised maybe more pertinant. What you do now, I don't know. What did Germany do with Nazi soldiers?
 
SpurMeUp said:
But explore the shades of grey and complexities involved and maybe people come to another conclusion
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I think that is true but in us all knowing and acknowledging it allows it to then be manipulated to exploit the potential grey areas. For example given a good lawyer she is going to be coached into saying whats needed to come back because its not so black and white. I am sure it will all be stated that it was groomed and she was young and did not know what she was doing because the end goal is to get back to the UK and have a kid in this environment.

Its complex but I am much more in the camp of, you flew to Syria to join ISIS, you stayed there and lost two children but you decided you wanted to come home once your dutch ISIS husband was arrested.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think that is true but in us all knowing and acknowledging it allows it to then be manipulated to exploit the potential grey areas. For example given a good lawyer she is going to be coached into saying whats needed to come back because its not so black and white. I am sure it will all be stated that it was groomed and she was young and did not know what she was doing because the end goal is to get back to the UK and have a kid in this environment.

Its complex but I am much more in the camp of, you flew to Syria to join ISIS, you stayed there and lost two children but you decided you wanted to come home once your dutch ISIS husband was arrested.
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I agree. You could say I'm even more callous, I agree with the nations who are simply bombing and Done attacking the shi1 out of these problem cult people. Far more tidy and low risk. Morally we don't even have to think about it.
 
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