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Politics, politics, politics

Gutter Boy said:
No - just max fac. The same as the answer has been all along. The EU just don't want us that far our of their tentacles.
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Max Fac has a border - The EU have agreed to a fricitonless border if we can come up with the answer, this was in Mays deal. The backstop s there if we cant.
 
scaramanga said:
Going forwards, neither party will be able to govern anyway.

There's no flavour of Brexit that avoids each party losing half of its supporters and possibly MPs.

If I were in May's position (not that I'd ever allow that) I'd deliver a final Brexit deal and call an election as the party that delivered Brexit whilst the opposition sat on their arses being Islington types.
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Norway + will work for labour and it fulfils the referendum, what makes you think that they will lose supporters with this deal?
 
r-u-s-x said:
Max Fac has a border - The EU have agreed to a fricitonless border if we can come up with the answer, this was in Mays deal. The backstop s there if we cant.
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I think the backstop is there to bind us into permanent customs union. The Good Friday Agreement already protects the border situation
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think the backstop is there to bind us into permanent customs union. The Good Friday Agreement already protects the border situation
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The EU agreed to a frictionless border the backstop is there if we cannot deliver. GFA does not protect the border situation, given the need for a customs border and our inability to deliver a frictionless border how does GFA do anything?
 
Gutter Boy said:
No - just max fac. The same as the answer has been all along. The EU just don't want us that far our of their tentacles.
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Max fac is the biggest fantasy of all and they know it. Thats why the backstop is getting so much attention. There is no magic technical solution to the border.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Norway + will work for labour and it fulfils the referendum, what makes you think that they will lose supporters with this deal?
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There's a huge number of traditional Labour voters that will see any deal with freedom of movement as a huge betrayal.

Think of all the people in those hideous North places that think immigrants are taking their bricky jobs.
 
scaramanga said:
There's a huge number of traditional Labour voters that will see any deal with freedom of movement as a huge betrayal.

Think of all the people in those hideous North places that think immigrants are taking their bricky jobs.
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is there? you have posted loads of stats showing that immigration is now not an important issue as it was once. Where it is an issue I also imagine they are not in marginals so would have limited impact.
 
scaramanga said:
There's a huge number of traditional Labour voters that will see any deal with freedom of movement as a huge betrayal.

Think of all the people in those hideous North places that think immigrants are taking their bricky jobs.
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Sad but true!
thick as two short ........
 
r-u-s-x said:
is there? you have posted loads of stats showing that immigration is now not an important issue as it was once. Where it is an issue I also imagine they are not in marginals so would have limited impact.
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Yep millions of the old bar pots
 
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Gutter Boy said:
I think the backstop is there to bind us into permanent customs union. The Good Friday Agreement already protects the border situation
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The GFA is there to stop UK citizens decending into sectarian violence, nothing to do with the border per se.
NI is already a special case and despite DUP protestations it should treated as such. Keeping NI in the CU was an EU proposal to avoid a hard border. Keeping the entire UK in the CU was a UK proposal that the EU conceeded to.
 
Rorschach said:
The GFA is there to stop UK citizens decending into sectarian violence, nothing to do with the border per se.
NI is already a special case and despite DUP protestations it should treated as such. Keeping NI in the CU was an EU proposal to avoid a hard border. Keeping the entire UK in the CU was a UK proposal that the EU conceeded to.
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But some of those UK citizens are citizens by name only and don't regard themselves as such, hence the violence.
 
glasgowspur said:
But some of those UK citizens are citizens by name only and don't regard themselves as such, hence the violence.
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I understand all to well the history of NI. Irrespective of whether they are unionists or republicans the vast majority of both communities are opposed to a hard border, and their government should not push this disasterous outcome on them. Incidentally NI citizens, all of them, are defacto EU citizens too and will continue to be even in the event of a hard border under dual passport arrangements. From what I can see the EU has more regard for their safety than their own government does.

Anyway the main point I was making is that the UK have already negotiated the backstop conditions and the EU had conceeded on the UK wide customs union after lobbying from the UK and Irish governments. That they now want to renage on that agreement really shows the political integrity of the UK government in these negotiations.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
is there? you have posted loads of stats showing that immigration is now not an important issue as it was once. Where it is an issue I also imagine they are not in marginals so would have limited impact.
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It's moved enough that it's not the most important factor. So that if there were a number of options on the table, a Norway/Switzerland model could work.

That's not to say it's moved enough for either party to win a majority on the current layout. I suspect that after Brexit there will be a lot of shifts in voting patterns.
 
Rorschach said:
I understand all to well the history of NI. Irresepctive of whether they are unionists or republicans the vast majority of both communities are opposed to a hard border, and their government should not push this disasterous outcome on them. Incidentally NI citizens, all of them, are defacto EU citizens too and will continue to be even in the event of a hard border under dual passport arrangements. From what I can see the EU has more regard for their safety than their own goverment does.

Anyway the main point I was making is that the UK have already negotiated the backstop conditions and the EU had conceeded on the UK wide customs union after lobbying from the UK and Irish governments. That they now want to renage on that agreement really shows the political integrity of the UK governement in these negotiations.
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I try and keep well away from Irish politics, it's nothing to do with me, it's too complicated and there way too many people willing to argue over it.
What I was rather clumsily trying to say was that if those who are UK citizens and didn't want to be weren't they wouldn't be fighting.

You are totally correct about the border and all things related.
 
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