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Politics, politics, politics

ShipOfGoldblum said:
I thought the opposite: revocation as an alternative to extension, and consideration of the options, rather than new negotiations - Royal Commission, perhaps -to be presented to the electorate again in 2022. No change of government necessary. DUP and Tories in harmony again. Leavers can maintain the purity of their unicorn Brexits, rather than tainting them with reality.
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And @nayimfromthehalfwayline

That was my initial thought.
But what makes me think it opens the door for a UK GE and A50 extension, is that it puts the power in the UK, not the EU.
So no longer are we looking at 31 March as a definite unless the EU27 agree to revoke.
We can now revoke.
The power still lies with the EU to grant an extension of A50. However, if they didn't agree to extend, we can revoke and then serve A50 again.
So effectively anyone wanting to "test out a Brexit" can do so without fear of axtuactu being committed to it.

Interesting times.
 
The various interest groups could have put forward generalized models, so punters at least had an idea of what they were voting for. After a run off vote the preferred model goes forward as the chosen model when and if an exit is supported. Going in blind was just mind boggling stupid.
 
scaramanga said:
How could any models be offered without having negotiated first?
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It's merely a preferred model. How can you offer up a proposal for a vote, when people have no idea of what they voting for, hard or soft Brexit? It doesn't have to be cast in stone obviously. Simply putting a vote to leave or remain was always going to have this outcome. This should have been made clear from the outset.
 
monkeybarry said:
And @nayimfromthehalfwayline

That was my initial thought.
But what makes me think it opens the door for a UK GE and A50 extension, is that it puts the power in the UK, not the EU.
So no longer are we looking at 31 March as a definite unless the EU27 agree to revoke.
We can now revoke.
The power still lies with the EU to grant an extension of A50. However, if they didn't agree to extend, we can revoke and then serve A50 again.
So effectively anyone wanting to "test out a Brexit" can do so without fear of axtuactu being committed to it.

Interesting times.
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I see what you are saying, there is logic to it - but theres also a BUT.
The government itself tried to put a block on this going to court, with the argument it was pointless because they would never do it.

And, this isnt actually binding - what are the chances the EU would allow it to become so? They have been aggressive throughout, exploiting every weakness, you think theyd allow us an ace like that in our hand?

I think this is yet to play out, and I feel its a loophole the EU will close forthwith. Thats even if we dont have the gumption to use it ourselves (likely).

I still remain convinced, having seen what work lays ahead, itll be seen as an escape by our politicians who will manouvre another vote and hope all can be forgotten.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I see what you are saying, there is logic to it - but theres also a BUT.
The government itself tried to put a block on this going to court, with the argument it was pointless because they would never do it.

And, this isnt actually binding - what are the chances the EU would allow it to become so? They have been aggressive throughout, exploiting every weakness, you think theyd allow us an ace like that in our hand?

I think this is yet to play out, and I feel its a loophole the EU will close forthwith. Thats even if we dont have the gumption to use it ourselves (likely).

I still remain convinced, having seen what work lays ahead, itll be seen as an escape by our politicians who will manouvre another vote and hope all can be forgotten.
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1). This Government wont do it but this government may not be very relevant for very much longer.

2). if the ECJ indicate this is law the EU are also bound by the decision and this expert for the ECJ is saying in his opinion it would be law, it is likely that if we did withdraw A50 and it goes to ECJ they would be on our side. This is not an EU decision but a ECJ interpreting the law, they could perhaps pass a new law to say they can kick a country out if they use A50 but its not a short term solution. The EU have always indicated that they would prefer hat UK stays in the union, this is their ideal scenario.
 
r-u-s-x said:
1). This Government wont do it but this government may not be very relevant for very much longer.

2). if the ECJ indicate this is law the EU are also bound by the decision and this expert for the ECJ is saying in his opinion it would be law, it is likely that if we did withdraw A50 and it goes to ECJ they would be on our side. This is not an EU decision but a ECJ interpreting the law, they could perhaps pass a new law to say they can kick a country out if they use A50 but its not a short term solution. The EU have always indicated that they would prefer hat UK stays in the union, this is their ideal scenario.
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We dont know what will happen with the government, but we also know Corbyn wants out - so if they win an election chances are theyll stick with Mays stance on out is out.

Ive no doubt the EU would rather we just stayed, and Im quite expecting that that be the ultimate outcome.

Even so - I also expect them the kill the option for A50 hokey cokey as well. Expect a treaty amendment at some point.

Chances are they cant while we are in the process, but I expect that loophole to be closed. As MonkeyBarry said, otherwise they dont hold all the cards do they?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
We dont know what will happen with the government, but we also know Corbyn wants out - so if they win an election chances are theyll stick with Mays stance on out is out.

Ive no doubt the EU would rather we just stayed, and Im quite expecting that that be the ultimate outcome.

Even so - I also expect them the kill the option for A50 hokey cokey as well. Expect a treaty amendment at some point.

Chances are they cant while we are in the process, but I expect that loophole to be closed. As MonkeyBarry said, otherwise they dont hold all the cards do they?
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It is an option to change or add a new law but it would be exceptional to get agreement and pass in the time frame, may be wrong but I think we could veto it if we wanted to(we are still in the EU) if we think it's politically expediant.
 
r-u-s-x said:
It is an option to change or add a new law but it would be exceptional to get agreement and pass in the time frame, may be wrong but I think we could veto it if we wanted to(we are still in the EU) if we think it's politically expediant.
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As I said, chances are they cant this time - but Id fully expect it in the future.

Quite possibly even aided by one of their "needs only a majority" vote that they like to use when they want something to happen not everyone will agree with.

Anything to make it harder to leave.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
As I said, chances are they cant this time - but Id fully expect it in the future.

Quite possibly even aided by one of their "needs only a majority" vote that they like to use when they want something to happen not everyone will agree with.

Anything to make it harder to leave.
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Ok, I agree that this will be tightened up in the future, if they thought that anyone would use A50 I assume they would have had it this time as it makes no sense for the bloc to have it this way.

This wont make it harder to leave though it makes it harder to stay.
 
Of course it doesnt. Killing the option to revoke A50 means to pull the trigger is a massive, massive commitment. Enough to prohibit most, I would imagine.

Especially having seen how the EU undertook negotiations with us.

Basically, "leave and youre fudged" is the message, and it will be heard loud and clear.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Of course it doesnt. Killing the option to revoke A50 means to pull the trigger is a massive, massive commitment. Enough to prohibit most, I would imagine.

Especially having seen how the EU undertook negotiations with us.

Basically, "leave and youre fudged" is the message, and it will be heard loud and clear.
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Everyone thought that A50 couldn't be unilaterally revoked once enacted, the courts have said this is not the case and they will change the rules so its more explicit. This isn't the EU taking a way a right/option to make it more restrictive but updating it to do as it was planned to do originally.

It should be a big deal to leave the EU, it causes so much disruption that it shouldn't be taken lightly, but once you decide to leave it makes it a lot harder to stay.
 
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wiziwig said:
Like you, my eldest brother married a black woman (Guyanese) and had a daughter with her too so for years, he also had to survive as a white minority in his household too.. :)

Like you, he CHOSE that situation to be in...

Show me where and when, the English CHOSE to be a minority in their own capital.
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Where I work and live the English are not the minority.

Anyway London voted to remain it was the poor northerners who swayed the vote blaming foreigners working for a wage most Brits wouldn’t get out of bed for.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
It's merely a preferred model. How can you offer up a proposal for a vote, when people have no idea of what they voting for, hard or soft Brexit? It doesn't have to be cast in stone obviously. Simply putting a vote to leave or remain was always going to have this outcome. This should have been made clear from the outset.
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So we vote for a proposed model, then we don't get that in negotiations. What next?
 
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