Politics, politics, politics

[ShipOfTheseus]

You may think that the findings would have been obvious in the first place, but I don't think that you'd have come up with the same clusters, propensities and weighted priorities if given a blank piece of paper. And, importantly, Remainist donors and activists would all have slightly different views on how it breaks down.

Research-based analysis (and 8,000 respondents is really, really hefty, I've spent my life in B2B, where half-a-dozen interviews allows me to construct a dozen different clusters) gives you a common framework. That's essential, because otherwise you can't translate and target your communications effectively. This sort of information helps a campaign team understand what kind of segments they want data on, the influencers that will get them engaging, and the messages that will agree with them on some issues and outweigh their concerns on others. And it means that the campaign team - even a virtual, multi-party one, which is what we have at Millbank - is operating to a similar set of assumptions and doesn't get in each others way.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Fair enough. I fail to see it is such a big deal, but I dont work with this sort of thing either so am well aware I am no expert.

I just read the article and nothing strikes me as any sort of lighbulb moment.

 

[glorygloryeze]

People have all sorts of beliefs. Doesn't mean we should fear them! In the EU parliment there are facists, left wing radicales, neo-nazis etc but people don't talk about Europe becoming communist or a new third reich taking over. In fact Europe has been a stabilising force, set up specifically to ensure something like the Nazis and World Wars would never happen again.

We've been through all this before; if the leaders of the EU Commission/Parliament etc say themselves that "Political Union across Europe" and a "United States of Europe" is what they are working towards should that just be ignored as "a sort of belief"?

 

[glorygloryeze]

A very simple question without a boarder how are you going to control immigration from the EU into the UK?

Firstly, you have to think how much migrants will take the much more arduous route to go the Republic of Ireland and then cross into Northern Ireland and then perhaps cross the water into England/Wales/Scotland, rather than come cross the Channel. Not sure the extra effort would be worth it for many tbh.
Secondly, i think this border issue could easily be solved by the Irish and UK Government sitting together and coming up with a solution that suits each other given the usual travel and trade that currently exists between the two, rather than one that the EU has to be happy with. Again, there is a border between Switzerland and France/EU at present that works and UK and RoI could also come up with one that works for trade relations, goods movement and checks for migrants and any illegal goods/people flows.

Ultimately, it will come down to whether the RoI and UK can be practical between each other given that the two countries are the main ones that the border concerns; is RoI just a region of the EU or a sovereign country that can create policies/take decisions on its own and for its own day-to-day benefit.

 

[r-u-s-x]

First point, if we are controlling immigration I assume we would have limitations on EU members can coming into the UK by going via NI they avoid these.

Second point Ireland are the insisting we honour the good Friday agreement and there is no boarder between NI and Ireland and the EU are supporting them on this. Dup are insisting no boarder between UK and NI. EU and Ireland have free movement of goods and people and Ireland will keep this ..

Take the dup out of it and a boarder on the sea seems easiest but that's not an option. There is no easy answer and it's not the EU putting pressure on Ireland but supporting their position

 

[SpurMeUp]

We've been through all this before; if the leaders of the EU Commission/Parliament etc say themselves that "Political Union across Europe" and a "United States of Europe" is what they are working towards should that just be ignored as "a sort of belief"?

If they are saying it, yes, ignore it, as it will never happen. And they are not saying a United States of Europe anyhoo.

At its core the EU is a customs union. Don’t let fear cloud your judgement. Britain, France, Italy etc are not going to stop being British, French or Italian!

Put it to bed. It’s scaremongering plain and simple.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[glorygloryeze]

If they are saying it, yes, ignore it, as it will never happen. And they are not saying a United States of Europe anyhoo.

At its core the EU is a customs union. Don’t let fear cloud your judgement. Britain, France, Italy etc are not going to stop being British, French or Italian!

Put it to bed. It’s scaremongering plain and simple.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

If the EU was simply a customs union, we'd probably not have had a Brexit vote
Should we ignore such things as EU Parliament, EU Commission, ECJ then? As i said previously i'm sure people said such institutions weren't going to come into being and "were just scaremongering".

I'm sure the recent PESCO formation within the EU can just be ignored too then?

 

[glorygloryeze]

First point, if we are controlling immigration I assume we would have limitations on EU members can coming into the UK by going via NI they avoid these.

Second point Ireland are the insisting we honour the good Friday agreement and there is no boarder between NI and Ireland and the EU are supporting them on this. Dup are insisting no boarder between UK and NI. EU and Ireland have free movement of goods and people and Ireland will keep this ..

Take the dup out of it and a boarder on the sea seems easiest but that's not an option. There is no easy answer and it's not the EU putting pressure on Ireland but supporting their position

Once migrants get into the UK via NI at some point checks could be set up when they try to travel by Ferry/Plane into the other parts of UK. If there is a will, there will be a way. This is assuming migrants will be happy to stay in NI in the first instance...not so sure they will but i digress.
The whole 'no border between NI and RoI' is obviously a throwback to when Ireland was United before the Brits conquered and then carved it up. The EU are clearly backing Ireland for their own long-term interests of expanding their realm which is fair enough for both Ireland and the EU point of view. Honouring agreements or taking notice of national votes is fine sometimes for the EU...

Anyway, the DUP are known to be quite short-sighted fools and have sort of shot themselves in the foot by taking such inflexible stances imo - if anything you'd have thought they'd more inclined to take the opposite stance.
On one hand i could understand the UK giving up NI in a border poll with a result that says Ireland should go back to being united as @Gutter Boy often suggests but on the other hand i think the border issue is being overplayed majorly as the situation in Switzerland shows; i think freedom of movement in NI for Rep of Irish citizens and Rep of Irish goods could be the starting point and then you work out migration checks and agreements from there.
Of course, this would be interesting to show whether Ireland is an independent country or just a region of the EU and hence the EU will say there should be no separation in nationality between an Irish citizen to an 'EU citizen'...
The amount of trade between Ireland and the UK should dictate that this is the direction of negotiations.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Once migrants get into the UK via NI at some point checks could be set up when they try to travel by Ferry/Plane into the other parts of UK. If there is a will, there will be a way. This is assuming migrants will be happy to stay in NI in the first instance...not so sure they will but i digress.
The whole 'no border between NI and RoI' is obviously a throwback to when Ireland was United before the Brits conquered and then carved it up. The EU are clearly backing Ireland for their own long-term interests of expanding their realm which is fair enough for both Ireland and the EU point of view. Honouring agreements or taking notice of national votes is fine sometimes for the EU...

Anyway, the DUP are known to be quite short-sighted fools and have sort of shot themselves in the foot by taking such inflexible stances imo - if anything you'd have thought they'd more inclined to take the opposite stance.
On one hand i could understand the UK giving up NI in a border poll with a result that says Ireland should go back to being united as @Gutter Boy often suggests but on the other hand i think the border issue is being overplayed majorly as the situation in Switzerland shows; i think freedom of movement in NI for Rep of Irish citizens and Rep of Irish goods could be the starting point and then you work out migration checks and agreements from there.
Of course, this would be interesting to show whether Ireland is an independent country or just a region of the EU and hence the EU will say there should be no separation in nationality between an Irish citizen to an 'EU citizen'...
The amount of trade between Ireland and the UK should dictate that this is the direction of negotiations.

That first bit checks coming into the UK is what the dup is refusing ,at the moment it can't be done... They would travel through NI not stay in NI.

No boarder between NI and Ireland was a big part of the peace process nothing to do with the EU, remove it and there is a real possibility of troubles again.

As has been said the Swiss follow all the rules set out by the EU we will not be happy so there needs to be a harder boarder.

It really is not possible what you are suggesting,plenty of articles out there explaining why.

It's not a EU issue it's a Irish and UK issue.

 

[SpurMeUp]

If the EU was simply a customs union, we'd probably not have had a Brexit vote
Should we ignore such things as EU Parliament, EU Commission, ECJ then? As i said previously i'm sure people said such institutions weren't going to come into being and "were just scaremongering".

I'm sure the recent PESCO formation within the EU can just be ignored too then?

Yep. Ignore it. You agree a united states of Europe would never work, or happen. So what are you worried about? The EU Parliment is not a big deal, its a place for disaffected muppets like Farrage etc and who votes at EU elections? Did you? I think we presume the EU has more power than it does. It's the size of Birgingham's council! And it works for its members - hence if members don't want something they can't implement it. But because its 'an other', we build it up into something to fear. In reality, there isn't that much more to the EU than a trading block and free trade area. To accomplish free trade, free movement is logical, as are laws to ensure all companies in the EU are competing in a fair space.

Can you point to any EU policies or laws - real ones that exist - that affect you negatively day to day?

 

[Scoopage]

How many English cleaners do you know? Or how many English labourers doing the dirtiest, hardest non-skilled building jobs do you know?

Who did these jobs before 2004?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Who did these jobs before 2004?

We have imported people to do these jobs to keep the cost down - these jobs will be done but the cost of everything will increase a lot and I am not sure there is the appetite for that (I am in favour). As long as people are happy that everything will go up in price then that's ok, I suspect once we are all paying a lot more for things people will not be happy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Who did these jobs before 2004?

When Brits were poorer, we did them. Why would you want British people to become poorer and do more menial jobs?

 

[Baleforce]

When Brits were poorer, we did them. Why would you want British people to become poorer and do more menial jobs?

sovereignty!

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yep. Ignore it. You agree a united states of Europe would never work, or happen. So what are you worried about? The EU Parliment is not a big deal, its a place for disaffected muppets like Farrage etc and who votes at EU elections? Did you? I think we presume the EU has more power than it does. It's the size of Birgingham's council! And it works for its members - hence if members don't want something they can't implement it. But because its 'an other', we build it up into something to fear. In reality, there isn't that much more to the EU than a trading block and free trade area. To accomplish free trade, free movement is logical, as are laws to ensure all companies in the EU are competing in a fair space.

Can you point to any EU policies or laws - real ones that exist - that affect you negatively day to day?

Haha, so all these things are 'not a big deal' eh? So why the hooh-ha then to leave the EU if the EU institutions are 'not a big deal' then? As anyone can see, if the EU was simply just a trading block, we'd still be in it. But being part of such comes with having to also have those other EU creations such as ECJ etc.

I'm sure in principle you wouldn't want psychopathic murderers only spending one month in prison even if you were not "directly affected" by them getting let straight out after one month (perhaps living in a very leafy crime-free area??)

Similarly, I am against the direction of travel re the way the EU is developing on principle , as you very well know; at present i am not affected directly by EU laws per say, but i DO NOT believe in the principle of freedom of movement and believe freedom of trade DOES NOT have to equal freedom of movement; perhaps preferential treatment for EU citizens, yes, but NOT fullfat freedom of movement. It to me as a building block to erase national borders between the EU countries and i still believe that for national decisions like who comes into a country and how many and legal jurisdiction the buck should stop within a nation's borders.

 

[glorygloryeze]

That first bit checks coming into the UK is what the dup is refusing ,at the moment it can't be done... They would travel through NI not stay in NI.

No boarder between NI and Ireland was a big part of the peace process nothing to do with the EU, remove it and there is a real possibility of troubles again.

As has been said the Swiss follow all the rules set out by the EU we will not be happy so there needs to be a harder boarder.

It really is not possible what you are suggesting,plenty of articles out there explaining why.

It's not a EU issue it's a Irish and UK issue.

This is the crux of it for me and why it can be solved between the two countries without the EU getting involved in the way it is at present and making it more of a deal that it needs to be.

 

[r-u-s-x]

This is the crux of it for me and why it can be solved between the two countries without the EU getting involved in the way it is at present and making it more of a deal that it needs to be.

you are either missing the point or purposely ignoring it.

The good Friday agreement has a provision that there can be no boarder between Ireland & NI- to put one there would mean breaking this and likely violence- it is not an option.

DUP will not allow a boarder or a different regime (customs union) to the rest of the UK - they currently hold a lot of power as they are keeping the Tories in power

There needs to be a boarder due to the fact we will have our own tax regime and regulations on manufacturing etc. with these two points where do you put it?

What makes you think the EU are making more of a deal than it needs to be- they are saying that they will not sign a deal with the UK unless we agree the boarder issue with Ireland, they are supporting their member (at the request of Ireland) - this is what is meant to do.

 

[glorygloryeze]

you are either missing the point or purposely ignoring it.

The good Friday agreement has a provision that there can be no boarder between Ireland & NI- to put one there would mean breaking this and likely violence- it is not an option.

DUP will not allow a boarder or a different regime (customs union) to the rest of the UK - they currently hold a lot of power as they are keeping the Tories in power

There needs to be a boarder due to the fact we will have our own tax regime and regulations on manufacturing etc. with these two points where do you put it?

What makes you think the EU are making more of a deal than it needs to be- they are saying that they will not sign a deal with the UK unless we agree the boarder issue with Ireland, they are supporting their member (at the request of Ireland) - this is what is meant to do.

I'm not missing the point; if Ireland do not want a border and DUP do not want a border then that says there is plenty of scope for agreement on a border issue for both the UK and RoI.

The EU seem to indeed be making more of a deal that it need be; for example they dismissed the technological solution, combined with the suggested exemptions for small businesses that was offered. The numbers that cross the Irish border compared to other parts of the EU border would seem to make this technological option at the very least worthy of greater investigation instead of the way it was dismissed out of hand; again because the EU wants to make the border issue more than it need to be imo

 

[r-u-s-x]

They are meant to take their members side in trade disputes and the fact they have backed up Irelands position means the strong hand now lies with Ireland rather the UK, if Ireland were not a member of the EU they would likely get a lot worse deal as the UK would have more power... This has some relevance to when the UK are making future trade deals with other countries.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'm not missing the point; if Ireland do not want a border and DUP do not want a border then that says there is plenty of scope for agreement on a border issue for both the UK and RoI.

The EU seem to indeed be making more of a deal that it need be; for example they dismissed the technological solution, combined with the suggested exemptions for small businesses that was offered. The numbers that cross the Irish border compared to other parts of the EU border would seem to make this technological option at the very least worthy of greater investigation instead of the way it was dismissed out of hand; again because the EU wants to make the border issue more than it need to be imo

They did not dismiss the technological solution (even though its pie in the sky) - they said go ahead and do it and if we cannot produce one then fall back to a boarder between Ireland and the UK. Thats the backstop they insisted on - if your way does not work we do this.

What they are protecting against is the UK getting what they want and Ireland not getting what they want by means of promising something that is not feasible or possible. Once this was put to the UK we refused as we also have no confidence in a technological solution. If we did we could have signed up to an agreement that had the proviso that if we could not deliver we give Ireland what they want.