• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics

The real problem with the minimum wage is that exploitative employers responded with the gig economy and zero-hours contracts. There aren't any obvious and easy policy or legislative cures for these; freelancing has a place in lots of industries, it just shouldn't in (say) retail. I'd still trust centre-left politicians to sit down with responsible employers and cook up some sort of a solution, more at least than I'd trust ones who believe either that all bosses are scum, or that the exploited deserve it.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The real problem with the minimum wage is that exploitative employers responded with the gig economy and zero-hours contracts. There aren't any obvious and easy policy or legislative cures for these; freelancing has a place in lots of industries, it just shouldn't in (say) retail. I'd still trust centre-left politicians to sit down with responsible employers and cook up some sort of a solution, more at least than I'd trust ones who believe either that all bosses are scum, or that the exploited deserve it.
Click to expand...

Universal basic income. That puts power right back in the hands of the people, rather than capital.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Universal basic income. That puts power right back in the hands of the people, rather than capital.
Click to expand...

UBI is a very, very weird one. I suspect that if it was ever tried here, it would - like Universal Credit, which started with lots of good intentions - be used as an aggressive tool to enforce a low benefit cap. Housing benefit is a whole other can of worms in terms of transferring public money to BTL landlords, but it would clearly be a shame if targeted benefits for childcare were squeezed to boost everyone else's UBI.

So either it's utopian or it's secretly regressive. Let's see how it goes in Ontario.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The real problem with the minimum wage is that exploitative employers responded with the gig economy and zero-hours contracts. There aren't any obvious and easy policy or legislative cures for these; freelancing has a place in lots of industries, it just shouldn't in (say) retail. I'd still trust centre-left politicians to sit down with responsible employers and cook up some sort of a solution, more at least than I'd trust ones who believe either that all bosses are scum, or that the exploited deserve it.
Click to expand...

The zero hours issue is often oversimplified/misrepresented in the current debate, in my opinion. Yes, there are surely circumstances when unscrupulous employers can and do exploit such arrangements, and this should be cracked down on.

But they are also highly suitable for the circumstances of some employers and employees (which, to be fair, you do seem to acknowledge) - and such arrangements existed well before the introduction of the minimum wage. I'm sure there were surveys published not so long ago that indicated that a significant number of staff valued their 'zero-hours' contracts and wished to maintain them.
 
Parklaner81 said:
The zero hours issue is often oversimplified/misrepresented in the current debate, in my opinion. Yes, there are surely circumstances when unscrupulous employers can and do exploit such arrangements, and this should be cracked down on.

But they are also highly suitable for the circumstances of some employers and employees (which, to be fair, you do seem to acknowledge) - and such arrangements existed well before the introduction of the minimum wage. I'm sure there were surveys published not so long ago that indicated that a significant number of staff valued their 'zero-hours' contracts and wished to maintain them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, agree with all this. The worry, I think, is that with the model having been tested by the unscrupulous, it will become really widespread when the next bout of recession and unemployment hits. It would be good to start testing counter measures now which carry as little unintended consequences as possible for people who genuinely value flexibility.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
UBI is a very, very weird one. I suspect that if it was ever tried here, it would - like Universal Credit, which started with lots of good intentions - be used as an aggressive tool to enforce a low benefit cap. Housing benefit is a whole other can of worms in terms of transferring public money to BTL landlords, but it would clearly be a shame if targeted benefits for childcare were squeezed to boost everyone else's UBI.

So either it's utopian or it's secretly regressive. Let's see how it goes in Ontario.
Click to expand...

The proper idea of UBI is that it replaces all benefits.

So in theory tomorrow the government starts paying every adult a wage of e.g. £16k pa, £8k pa for children. That's essentially for housing and food. All housing benefit, state pensions, universal credit is abolished.

It will basically be like everyone is on a state pension. Then what work they do is like a private pension top-up, which will differentiate the comfortable from the wealthy (but with limits like an initial 28 hour working week).

But I don't think you can have a mixed model - i.e. keeping targeted benefits. We either move to post-capitalism or don't.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Yeah. I see why you're so Lexity now, that's definitely not compatible with freedom of movement!

If we can have world government, global financial regulation and global free trade, then this sounds like an eminently sensible way of arranging things.
Click to expand...

I think it will start in a few areas and then spread. You kind of need to have been through capitalism to get to post-capitalism, so it's not for all the world yet (automisation freeing us from work is the spark).

It's interesting that it's taking root in the most civilised parts of the world first - Finland, Switzerland, Canada. I'm really interest to see what Five Star will now do in Italy, as they are the first organised degrowth party to gain a national foothold.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The proper idea of UBI is that it replaces all benefits.

So in theory tomorrow the government starts paying every adult a wage of e.g. £16k pa, £8k pa for children. That's essentially for housing and food. All housing benefit, state pensions, universal credit is abolished.

It will basically be like everyone is on a state pension. Then what work they do is like a private pension top-up, which will differentiate the comfortable from the wealthy (but with limits like an initial 28 hour working week).

But I don't think you can have a mixed model - i.e. keeping targeted benefits. We either move to post-capitalism or don't.
Click to expand...


And the reason it won't work is because there is a lot of people who can't be trusted to spend it responsibly, who will then turn back to the government.
Once people are homeless or their children are not getting fed the government need to step in and bail them out.
That is a road that once started down is a road to ruin.
 
Gutter Boy said:
You don't realise the misogyny that exists in the Labour party and Momentum if you think that's remotely possible.

You mention Stella Creasy, look at the kind of crap she has to deal with: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/squawkbox-stella-creasy_uk_5a44a3f5e4b025f99e19a10e and http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/skylar-bakerjordan/why-jared-omaras-misogyny_b_18371578.html

Misogyny and anti-Semitism are the two big internal blights of the left in this country
Click to expand...

The right has a bigger problem with misogyny and anti-Semitism/racism if you look at the big picture. Stella Creasy doesn't get sh1t because she is a woman, although some tw@ts who insult her are misogynist. She gets sh1t from some on the left because she is perceived as a phoney who actively dislikes those who support Corbyn. Why don't people call the right-wingers who abuse and threaten Diane Abbot (by far the most abused and threatened MP) "misogynist" ? It's because they would tell you that the abuse they give her isn't to do with her gender. They also say it isn't to do with her race. But it's not members of Momentum/the left insulting her, so the media don't report it as a racist or misogynist problem of the right, not in the same way as they do if insults and abuse come from the left. And I actually agree to a degree, I think those who want to give Diane Abbot sh1t for her politics aren't necessarily motivated by her race or gender (although some of them are).

It wasn't a member of the left who went out and murdered a female MP, that was the work of a far-right neo-Nazi. Right-wing ideology, stirred up by poisonous rags like The Sun and The Daily Mail contributes to the climate of hate that would make an MP the target of a crazy person to murder -- but how is that reported on in comparison to any wrong-doing by those on the left? The guy running over Muslims in his van also wanted to kill Jeremy Corbyn. Consider that there are far more left-wing activists than right-wing ones, how many people are being murdered by the left in this country? And how many by the right? The far-right are allowed by the media to be detached from the right in general because it suits them to do so. Another example, how many Labour MPs are casually using the word 'N1gger' in political meetings? The Tories have that in their recent history, yet they don't have to own that in a way that the media would say "The Tories have a problem with black people." It was just attributed to a lone MP and left at that. Now imagine a Labour MP is on tape using equivalent words about Jewish people. That would not be reported as a lone MP with a problem, it would be reported as the left and Labour having a problem with anti-Semitism.

And just an FYI -- the head of Momentum, the founder, is Jon Lansman, now on Labour's NEC. He is Jewish. Apparently he has overseen the formation and organisation of an anti-Semitic menace. You know, it is possible for a Jewish MP or a female MP to be given sh1t about their politics and that abuse not to be motivated by race or gender. That's not to say that it doesn't exist at all, there are anti-Semites on the left, there is misogyny as well. But this exists to a much larger degree on the right, and like I said, the abuse of female MPs or MPs of ethnic minorities by those on the right is not reported on in a way that smears the right in general as misogynist or racist.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Yeah, agree with all this. The worry, I think, is that with the model having been tested by the unscrupulous, it will become really widespread when the next bout of recession and unemployment hits. It would be good to start testing counter measures now which carry as little unintended consequences as possible for people who genuinely value flexibility.
Click to expand...

This is the crux of it. Finding a way to eliminate the abusive extremes while leaving alone those who want to play fairly within the spirit of the arrangements.

Sadly, in practice, nowhere near as easy as it sounds...
 
the dza said:
The right has a bigger problem with misogyny and anti-Semitism/racism if you look at the big picture. Stella Creasy doesn't get sh1t because she is a woman, although some tw@ts who insult her are misogynist. She gets sh1t from some on the left because she is perceived as a phoney who actively dislikes those who support Corbyn. Why don't people call the right-wingers who abuse and threaten Diane Abbot (by far the most abused and threatened MP) "misogynist" ? It's because they would tell you that the abuse they give her isn't to do with her gender. They also say it isn't to do with her race. But it's not members of Momentum/the left insulting her, so the media don't report it as a racist or misogynist problem of the right, not in the same way as they do if insults and abuse come from the left. And I actually agree to a degree, I think those who want to give Diane Abbot sh1t for her politics aren't necessarily motivated by her race or gender (although some of them are).

It wasn't a member of the left who went out and murdered a female MP, that was the work of a far-right neo-Nazi. Right-wing ideology, stirred up by poisonous rags like The Sun and The Daily Mail contributes to the climate of hate that would make an MP the target of a crazy person to murder -- but how is that reported on in comparison to any wrong-doing by those on the left? The guy running over Muslims in his van also wanted to kill Jeremy Corbyn. Consider that there are far more left-wing activists than right-wing ones, how many people are being murdered by the left in this country? And how many by the right? The far-right are allowed by the media to be detached from the right in general because it suits them to do so. Another example, how many Labour MPs are casually using the word 'N1gger' in political meetings? The Tories have that in their recent history, yet they don't have to own that in a way that the media would say "The Tories have a problem with black people." It was just attributed to a lone MP and left at that. Now imagine a Labour MP is on tape using equivalent words about Jewish people. That would not be reported as a lone MP with a problem, it would be reported as the left and Labour having a problem with anti-Semitism.

And just an FYI -- the head of Momentum, the founder, is Jon Lansman, now on Labour's NEC. He is Jewish. Apparently he has overseen the formation and organisation of an anti-Semitic menace. You know, it is possible for a Jewish MP or a female MP to be given sh1t about their politics and that abuse not to be motivated by race or gender. That's not to say that it doesn't exist at all, there are anti-Semites on the left, there is misogyny as well. But this exists to a much larger degree on the right, and like I said, the abuse of female MPs or MPs of ethnic minorities by those on the right is not reported on in a way that smears the right in general as misogynist or racist.
Click to expand...

This is mainly fair, although I'm never comfortable with pointing to Jews on one side or another as a defence against complaints about anti-semitism.

But it would be nice if we could hold the left to rather higher standards than the right.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
This is mainly fair, although I'm never comfortable with pointing to Jews on one side or another as a defence against complaints about anti-semitism.

But it would be nice if we could hold the left to rather higher standards than the right.
Click to expand...

I agree and kick them out of the party too, MPs or members. But basically, my long droning post was just to highlight how disingenuous the reporting of the left (or far left if you like) actually is. It's not a deep-rooted burning problem with misogyny or anti-Semitism in my opinion, it is just reported that way, and yet racism on the right is never reported on as a Tory problem, it's just allowed to be attributed to the individual in question and everybody moves on. And the thing is, it's not just right-wing media, but some of those on the right of the Labour party who like to smear the whole of their political opposition on the left of the party with charges of anti-Semitism and misogyny whenever they find an example of it.

But this bullsh1t is allowed to pass and then it just becomes a "fact" that "the left have a problem with anti-Semitism." No, a minority of the left have a problem with it, most people do not. The same as most people on the right do not have a problem with women/gays/ethnic minorities, but some do.
 
glasgowspur said:
And the reason it won't work is because there is a lot of people who can't be trusted to spend it responsibly, who will then turn back to the government.
Once people are homeless or their children are not getting fed the government need to step in and bail them out.
That is a road that once started down is a road to ruin.
Click to expand...

Studies by the World Bank have found that direct cash transfer programmes do not cause people to spend their basic income on alcohol and drugs

http://documents.worldbank.org/cura...-temptation-goods-a-review-of-global-evidence
 
the dza said:
I agree and kick them out of the party too, MPs or members. But basically, my long droning post was just to highlight how disingenuous the reporting of the left (or far left if you like) actually is. It's not a deep-rooted burning problem with misogyny or anti-Semitism in my opinion, it is just reported that way, and yet racism on the right is never reported on as a Tory problem, it's just allowed to be attributed to the individual in question and everybody moves on. And the thing is, it's not just right-wing media, but some of those on the right of the Labour party who like to smear the whole of their political opposition on the left of the party with charges of anti-Semitism and misogyny whenever they find an example of it.

But this bullsh1t is allowed to pass and then it just becomes a "fact" that "the left have a problem with anti-Semitism." No, a minority of the left have a problem with it, most people do not. The same as most people on the right do not have a problem with women/gays/ethnic minorities, but some do.
Click to expand...

Just to calibrate where you stand on this. Would you want Livingstone back in?
 
glasgowspur said:
And the reason it won't work is because there is a lot of people who can't be trusted to spend it responsibly, who will then turn back to the government.
Once people are homeless or their children are not getting fed the government need to step in and bail them out.
That is a road that once started down is a road to ruin.
Click to expand...

I kind of agree, I think Universal basic income is a nice, flowery middle-class idea. But we can see with the benefit changes the Tories have made with Universal Credit -- when you have vulnerable people who are given money directly instead of the housing benefit going direct to the landlord, cases of rent arrears and homelessness rise dramatically, the number of families with kids living in temporary accommodation increases dramatically too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back