Politics, politics, politics

[ShipOfTheseus]

Got a bit of a soft spot for the old compassionate Conservatives. Both Ken Clark and Heseltine represent a pragmatic version of Conservatism that I respect..

Heseltine is a good egg, in a patrician sort of way. Anna Soubry clearly has her heart in the right place. Ken Clarke? Hmm. He doesn't give a fudge about toeing the party line and he's absolutely sound on Europe, but there's a lot about him which suggests that he's not all that compassionate. Spending most of his political career with a sideline as lobbyist for BAT, for starters.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

What things could a Remain poitician promise people, along the lines of Brexit? For example:

• Black Passports
• Immigrant Register and send em home if out of work
• Investment into training up Brits, and new certificates of excellence for brit workers
• New Trade Department to focusing on generating non-EU trade, as Germany does
• Reduce non-EU migration into the UK (the majority of migrants currently)
• To influence the EU to become less federalist building coalitions with Northern European nations, and Euro sceptical parties in Europe.
• ???

Yeah, that sort of thing. Something on residency and local ties as a qualifier for social housing. Ability for councils to offer council tax rebates for non-incomers. Red meat for racists and populists which doesn't make all that much difference to most migrants.

Reducing non-EU migration is dangerous for businesses and academia, and it's already squeezed beyond the point where our human obligations to refugees and to family members are being adequately met.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Heseltine is a good egg, in a patrician sort of way. Anna Soubry clearly has her heart in the right place. Ken Clarke? Hmm. He doesn't give a fudge about toeing the party line and he's absolutely sound on Europe, but there's a lot about him which suggests that he's not all that compassionate. Spending most of his political career with a sideline as lobbyist for BAT, for starters.

Isn't that all Conservatives? The ethos of the party from its inception is to conserve wealth for individuals. To use a privileged position to one's own advantage, and to preserve it. I've never understood why those who are not rich vote for them. I think its aspirational. Yet illogical. People on benefits etc Yet Torys are probably more competent at governing as they get more practice - both in government and in commerce. Politics needs a shake up imo. TIme to break down party lines, and instigate a new pragmatism with cross party focus - as they do successfully on Education for example in Nordic countries.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Yeah, that sort of thing. Something on residency and local ties as a qualifier for social housing. Ability for councils to offer council tax rebates for non-incomers. Red meat for racists and populists which doesn't make all that much difference to most migrants.

Reducing non-EU migration is dangerous for businesses and academia, and it's already squeezed beyond the point where our human obligations to refugees and to family members are being adequately met.

if we can figure it out, why are leading politicians not brave enough to? Biding their time possibly. Sadly too many politicians are concerned with keeping a job, than having vision and invention. I think we will get their - to a place like this with Brexit aims while staying in the EU - but it will take time and the damage in the interim will be costly. There is also the danger of a watered down Brexit where everyone loses. No one is happy.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Isn't that all Conservatives? The ethos of the party from its inception is to conserve wealth for individuals. To use a privileged position to one's own advantage, and to preserve it. I've never understood why those who are not rich vote for them. I think its aspirational. Yet illogical. People on benefits etc Yet Torys are probably more competent at governing as they get more practice - both in government and in commerce. Politics needs a shake up imo. TIme to break down party lines, and instigate a new pragmatism with cross party focus - as they do successfully on Education for example in Nordic countries.

You do find the odd one who seems okay, but I'd agree they are a rarity. And yes, it's baffling why poor people would vote for them.

I'm politically homeless right now - basically a Blairite with no place in Labour, a social democrat disappointed with fundamentally liberal/localist LDs. So I should be excited about the prospect of breaking down party lines. But looking at Italy right now, and how astoundingly large UKIP got here, and how successful Momentum has been, I worry that if FPTP came to an end the floodgates would be opened permanently for the nutters. The best hope is still that Labour comes to its senses and tacks to the centre.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

if we can figure it out, why are leading politicians not brave enough to? Biding their time possibly. Sadly too many politicians are concerned with keeping a job, than having vision and invention. I think we will get their - to a place like this with Brexit aim while staying in the EU - but it will take time and the damage in the interim will be costly. There is also the danger of a watered down Brexit where everyone loses. No one is happy.

Yep, all this. The damage will be immense. And no-one, on any side, will stop being angry about it all.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

You do find the odd one who seems okay, but I'd agree they are a rarity. And yes, it's baffling why poor people would vote for them.

I'm politically homeless right now - basically a Blairite with no place in Labour, a social democrat disappointed with fundamentally liberal/localist LDs. So I should be excited about the prospect of breaking down party lines. But looking at Italy right now, and how astoundingly large UKIP got here, and how successful Momentum has been, I worry that if FPTP came to an end the floodgates would be opened permanently for the nutters. The best hope is still that Labour comes to its senses and tacks to the centre.

What you mean Tory Lite? No thanks I like where they are now. Occupying a traditional centre left democratic socialist position.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

What you mean Tory Lite? No thanks I like where they are now. Occupying a traditional centre left democratic socialist position.

Are Bennites "centre left democratic socialists"? Yes, they have opted for party politics rather than armed revolution, hence "democratic". But they see that as a really major concession, which exemplifies why they are so weird.

The likes of Seumas Milne and Andrew Murray - proper, paid up tankies - aren't centre left in any normal view of the Labour party. If there's a centre in Labour, it's somewhere between the old right and the soft left - in other words, between Brown and Miliband minor.

So, even if you're a fan of that nice Mr Corbyn, I'm sure you'd have been relatively happy with 2015-era Labour. And then we both could have had a party we could have supported.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What things could a Remain poitician promise people, along the lines of Brexit? For example:

• Black Passports
• Immigrant Register and send em home if out of work
• Investment into training up Brits, and new certificates of excellence for brit workers
• New Trade Department to focusing on generating non-EU trade, as Germany does
• Reduce non-EU migration into the UK (the majority of migrants currently)
• To influence the EU to become less federalist building coalitions with Northern European nations, and Euro sceptical parties in Europe.
• ???

I think the only way the 52% would accept rejoining the EU would be if it radically reformed:

- No political element - abolition of the parliament and commission (leaving only the council)
- No social dumping - immigration via work permits only
- No state aid or competition laws - to allow for planned economies again

Basically a return to pre-Maastricht principles of international (i.e. between nations, not outsourcing democracy to a third party) economic co-operation

 

[Gutter Boy]

Heseltine is a good egg, in a patrician sort of way. Anna Soubry clearly has her heart in the right place. Ken Clarke? Hmm. He doesn't give a fudge about toeing the party line and he's absolutely sound on Europe, but there's a lot about him which suggests that he's not all that compassionate. Spending most of his political career with a sideline as lobbyist for BAT, for starters.

Heseltine's great legacy will be the regeneration of Liverpool. It could have become a wasteland like Detroit without what he did in the 80s.

 

[the dza]

Are Bennites "centre left democratic socialists"? Yes, they have opted for party politics rather than armed revolution, hence "democratic". But they see that as a really major concession, which exemplifies why they are so weird.

The likes of Seumas Milne and Andrew Murray - proper, paid up tankies - aren't centre left in any normal view of the Labour party. If there's a centre in Labour, it's somewhere between the old right and the soft left - in other words, between Brown and Miliband minor.

So, even if you're a fan of that nice Mr Corbyn, I'm sure you'd have been relatively happy with 2015-era Labour. And then we both could have had a party we could have supported.

Under Miliband, when members voted at conference to bring railways back into public ownership, they were ignored. This was before Corbyn, before Momentum and before the influx of new members. Just rank and file Labour members of old, voting at conference for a left-wing policy that had broad public support.

Miliband and Balls were still to the right of traditional Labour imo, it's only Blair that skews perceptions so much that the leadership of Miliband was considered left-wing. Even George Osbourne had them beat re. Minimum wage rises!

The Lib Dems offer the social democrat nothingness if that's what people want. 3 men and a dog voted for them at the last election.

 

[scaramanga]

What things could a Remain poitician promise people, along the lines of Brexit? For example:

• Black Passports
• Immigrant Register and send em home if out of work
• Investment into training up Brits, and new certificates of excellence for brit workers
• New Trade Department to focusing on generating non-EU trade, as Germany does
• Reduce non-EU migration into the UK (the majority of migrants currently)
• To influence the EU to become less federalist building coalitions with Northern European nations, and Euro sceptical parties in Europe.
• ???

• Freedom to trade with any country we want
• Freedom to immediately extricate ourselves from the inevitable financial mess that any financial union including Greece and Spain will eventually become
• Freedom to refuse all in and out of work benefits to any non nationals
• A veto on any European law in perpetuity and a lock that no future law shall ever diminish or end such a veto
• An opt out from any new laws that we consider to be moving towards greater integration

No thanks to the reduction in immigration and good luck with your last one - never going to happen.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

• Freedom to trade with any country we want
• Freedom to immediately extricate ourselves from the inevitable financial mess that any financial union including Greece and Spain will eventually become
• Freedom to refuse all in and out of work benefits to any non nationals
• A veto on any European law in perpetuity and a lock that no future law shall ever diminish or end such a veto
• An opt out from any new laws that we consider to be moving towards greater integration

No thanks to the reduction in immigration and good luck with your last one - never going to happen.

Which country did the EU stop the UK trading with?

 

[scaramanga]

Which country did the EU stop the UK trading with?

They enforced a protectionist border that effectively ends trade for any product or service that can be sourced in the EU.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

They enforced a protectionist border that effectively ends trade for any product or service that can be sourced in the EU.

"Effectively" is doing a lot of work there. So is "any". And presumably when you say "the EU", you mean "the EU, or the dozens of other countries with which the EU has successfully negotiated trade agreements, to which we will not have access after Brexit".

 

[scaramanga]

"Effectively" is doing a lot of work there. So is "any". And presumably when you say "the EU", you mean "the EU, or the dozens of other countries with which the EU has successfully negotiated trade agreements, to which we will not have access after Brexit".

If you'd like me to rephrase it to "Freedom to trade without protectionism with any country we want" I'm happy to. The point still stands.

One of the clear aims of the EU is to use artificial trade barriers to make internal goods and services more competitive against those who are able to produce them better and/or cheaper. That's a terribly policy and not one I want the UK to be a part of.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

If you'd like me to rephrase it to "Freedom to trade without protectionism with any country we want" I'm happy to. The point still stands.

It really doesn't. Outside of the EU and its trade agreements, we are free to trade under heavily protectionist WTO terms with any country we want. Sure, we have the option to set up free trade agreements, but they take years to negotiate. So all we get under Brexit is the long-term potential to have trade agreements which may or may not be less protectionist than the ones we currently have, and may or may not cover a different group of countries. The short term restraint on trade is guaranteed, though.

 

[scaramanga]

It really doesn't. Outside of the EU and its trade agreements, we are free to trade under heavily protectionist WTO terms with any country we want. Sure, we have the option to set up free trade agreements, but they take years to negotiate. So all we get under Brexit is the long-term potential to have trade agreements which may or may not be less protectionist than the ones we currently have, and may or may not cover a different group of countries. The short term restraint on trade is guaranteed, though.

WTO terms are less protectionist than most EU terms and are improving all the time. Unless the EU deigns to offer a trade agreement then their terms are incredibly restrictive.

I'm not sure why you want to restrict your focus to the short term, this is a decision that will have an effect for decades, not months. Obviously trade agreements will take time, but they will be a lot simpler without the excessive protectionism required by the EU. In fact, our trade could be massively improved by sending out a bunch of letters stating "Dear [insert country]. We are no longer applying tariffs to imports from your country. Regards, UK"

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

WTO terms are less protectionist than most EU terms and are improving all the time. Unless the EU deigns to offer a trade agreement then their terms are incredibly restrictive.

I'm not sure why you want to restrict your focus to the short term, this is a decision that will have an effect for decades, not months. Obviously trade agreements will take time, but they will be a lot simpler without the excessive protectionism required by the EU. In fact, our trade could be massively improved by sending out a bunch of letters stating "Dear [insert country]. We are no longer applying tariffs to imports from your country. Regards, UK"

We could send those letters. They might work for imports of commodities. For manufactured goods, though, we'd need to set out in our letters what safety standards, product conformance, labelling restrictions and so on would apply, and under what inspection regimes. Then for services, we'd need to set out - for pretty much every specific field of endeavour - what professional recognition would apply. Oh, and the commodities would have to be mineral in origin; phytosanitary standards and inspections would need to be negotiated for animal or plant-based commodity products.

One way round all this - the quickest and cheapest, although still slow and arduous -would be to borrow some of the agreements and standards that the EU have templated. You're going to get rather less managed divergence than you expect.

 

[scaramanga]

We could send those letters. They might work for imports of commodities. For manufactured goods, though, we'd need to set out in our letters what safety standards, product conformance, labelling restrictions and so on would apply, and under what inspection regimes. Then for services, we'd need to set out - for pretty much every specific field of endeavour - what professional recognition would apply. Oh, and the commodities would have to be mineral in origin; phytosanitary standards and inspections would need to be negotiated for animal or plant-based commodity products.

One way round all this - the quickest and cheapest, although still slow and arduous -would be to borrow some of the agreements and standards that the EU have templated. You're going to get rather less managed divergence than you expect.

Or we could allow he public to choose whether or not they want any of those standards implemented.

Even easier .