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Politics, politics, politics

The Italy election on sunday is quite interesting to me. The party expected to be the biggest are a De-growth party who want to pull Italy out of the Eurozone. They won't go into government with either the centre left or centre right though, as they have a no alliances policy, so refuse to go into any collation.

But it's nice to see progressive ideas like serious environmentalism and anti-globalisation entering mainstream politics (though Five Star are far from perfect with some of their refuge and vaccination policies).
 
Gutter Boy said:
The Italy election on sunday is quite interesting to me. The party expected to be the biggest are a De-growth party who want to pull Italy out of the Eurozone. They won't go into government with either the centre left or centre right though, as they have a no alliances policy, so refuse to go into any collation.

But it's nice to see progressive ideas like serious environmentalism and anti-globalisation entering mainstream politics (though Five Star are far from perfect with some of their refuge and vaccination policies).
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They were euro-sceptic a few years back. But last I heard they categorically ruled out pulling Italy out of the Eurozone. When it was discussed years back, it was just the Euro anyhoo. Fake news? Yes.
 
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Surely leaving the Euro would be leaving the Eurozone? Not that it really matters what the Five Star Movement says it thinks about anything. Collection of single issue nutters; sad that they went from mainstream success with System Addict in the 80s to such a confused set of positions today.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Surely leaving the Euro would be leaving the Eurozone? Not that it really matters what the Five Star Movement says it thinks about anything. Collection of single issue nutters; sad that they went from mainstream success with System Addict in the 80s to such a confused set of positions today.
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I think it's quite a coherent programme. De-growth, anti-globalisation, social liberalism, more direct democracy and promoting society interests over those of capital. It's basically a Green Party programme with balls instead of bleeding hearts.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Surely leaving the Euro would be leaving the Eurozone? Not that it really matters what the Five Star Movement says it thinks about anything. Collection of single issue nutters; sad that they went from mainstream success with System Addict in the 80s to such a confused set of positions today.
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Yes. Five star were never proposing an Italy EU exit, just considered pulling out the Euro, but even that they have ruled out. So it’s not the vote of EU confidence EU sceptics would like it be.

One of the (many) untrue narratives that came about during the referendum was the EU is on the point of collapse etc Actually it’s economy has grown outstripping UK growth.

If you’re looking for signs of EU fissures better to look at Hungry, Poland or Austria rather than Italy.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
SpurMeUp said:
They were euro-sceptic a few years back. But last I heard they categorically ruled out pulling Italy out of the Eurozone. When it was discussed years back, it was just the Euro anyhoo. Fake news? Yes.
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In the last two months they've pulled back from the pledge of an immediate referendum on it, basically because they got a sniff of winning and wanted to appease some of the establishment: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...o-longer-time-to-leave-the-euro-idUSKBN1EY21Z
 
Hard to have a row in here anymore [emoji23]

What do we think the next 6 months will bring? A Brexit deal no one is happy with - that’s almost a given now is it not?

Then once we get to see the best trade and exit deal our government could negotiate, will there be a ‘is it worth it’ movement? Or will we just suck it up, even if it’s less optimal for the UK than now?

What will the future - next 6 to 12 months - bring?




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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The interesting thing today was May trying to get state aid and competition bound into the FTA.

She's trying to bind the next Corbyn government and stop them renationalising and cancelling PFIs.
 
May clings on until Parliament gets to vote on being in a Customs Union. Zombie government, just playing out the clock until forced out. All they seem to be doing is putting off dealing with the problems of Brexit for as long as they can.

I actually think May wants Parliament to do the work for her: "Sorry Mr Rees-Mug, I tried to get your utopian hard-right Brexit, but the nasty old Parliament wouldn't let me. Would you like the job now anyway? No? Ok I'll carry on then." *gurn*
 
Got a bit of a soft spot for the old compassionate Conservatives. Both Ken Clark and Heseltine represent a pragmatic version of Conservatism that I respect. While May could be seen as inclined to similar ethics, she totally lacks leadership and conviction. Clark and Heseltine are true to their beliefs and not afraid of stating what they really think is right. Here is Heseltine's latest missives about May's position:

“The speech just moves us further down the cherry-picking road. It set out the cherries that Britain wants to pick but that approach completely ignores the fact that the EU has said, ‘sorry there is no cherry picking’.”

He added: “Why is it that after 18 months since the referendum we have not got any closer with these issues? The answer is simple: because no one has got any answer about how to do it.”

He said the huge gulf between what May was asking for and what the EU would be prepared to give was as wide, if not wider, than ever, leaving UK businesses in despair, and with no option but to consider postponing investment, or placing their money and plans elsewhere.

“While that gap remains industry will continue to make assumptions that will involve moving investment from here to the continent,”


You get the impression May is like a child who's trying to placate rowing parents. Caught in the middle she's desperate to make everyone happy. But she lacks vision/strength/ conviction to lead anyone out of this mess. The closest I've seen to someone have a the ability to do this is old New Labour. Blair and Alastair Campbell. Someone needs to stand up and outline what we can do with the Brexit momentum. Leaving the EU won't help that is for sure, it won't give meaningful independence on anything important, but will cost the UK in trade, investment and influence. We need a manifesto that sets out how to achieve some of the aims of Brexit from within the EU, and we need politicians who are not afraid to stand up and articulate true belief and vision; something that May by definition of her Remain vote, can not do.
 
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What I can't understand is the media and everyone is still talking about 'when' Brexit happens rather than 'if'' it does. Despite the clear and obvious folly, the narrative has yet to change. Why would anyone want to impose something that leaves the nation in a worse position? Why are politicians trying to do the wrong thing 'righter'' rather than stand up and do the right thing?
 
SpurMeUp said:
What I can't understand is the media and everyone is still talking about 'when' Brexit happens rather than 'if'' it does. Despite the clear and obvious folly, the narrative has yet to change. Why would anyone want to impose something that leaves the nation in a worse position? Why are politicians trying to do the wrong thing 'righter'' rather than stand up and do the right thing?
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One optimistic answer is that influential folk within politics and the commentariat are shooting for BINO or the softest possible Brexit - EEA, EFTA, FoM, strong associate membership of all relevant EU bodies, observer status in EU parliament - and will still need to insist that Brexit has happened, because black passports.

We can't cancel Brexit completely and revert to status quo ante without some sort of plebiscite. And that's very risky. There are good ways around that risk, like enfranchising 16 year olds or UK citizens in the EU, and offering multiple voting options. But we still might be better off with an imposed BINO.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
One optimistic answer is that influential folk within politics and the commentariat are shooting for BINO or the softest possible Brexit - EEA, EFTA, FoM, strong associate membership of all relevant EU bodies, observer status in EU parliament - and will still need to insist that Brexit has happened, because black passports.

We can't cancel Brexit completely and revert to status quo ante without some sort of plebiscite. And that's very risky. There are good ways around that risk, like enfranchising 16 year olds or UK citizens in the EU, and offering multiple voting options. But we still might be better off with an imposed BINO.
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What things could a Remain poitician promise people, along the lines of Brexit? For example:
  • Black Passports
  • Immigrant Register and send em home if out of work
  • Investment into training up Brits, and new certificates of excellence for brit workers
  • New Trade Department to focusing on generating non-EU trade, as Germany does
  • Reduce non-EU migration into the UK (the majority of migrants currently)
  • To influence the EU to become less federalist building coalitions with Northern European nations, and Euro sceptical parties in Europe.
  • ???
 
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