Politics, politics, politics

[StephenH]

So if we can have a free trade deal with the EU, post brexit, whats the fuss all about?

Why all end of the world rhetoric?

Free trade is a very loose phrase.
It 'think' it would mean negotiating a trade deal from scratch starting with a blank sheet of paper.
They can take years!
I think we will get a better deal than that though I.e. A Canada type version. These type of deals come with strings that has the Boris types in a real lather.

 

[DTA]

What about the remain lies? you know no plans for an EU national army, no plans for a harmonised tax system across Europe with gained revenue then dished out by the EU to different territories of the state of Europe. One would imagine that after the amount they have taken from Britain to build roads and transport systems in eastern europe they would try to take even more from the country to bribe the eastern europeans.

No the were no lies on the remain side.

All of which I believe we would have a veto on. So as long as we don't want It, it doesn't happen. So no, not lies. Leave on the other hand basically made brick up constantly... and when remain brought up the reality of the situation they called it project fear.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I know people will say that the EU is our biggest market but I would like us to trade with an increasing affluent rest of the world and not so much a poorer Europe. So on that basis I would like us out of the EU as well as a weaker pound is boasting our exports and pretty much all of our holidays are outside of Europe, being in the EU is not a great thing for me.

The only thing that the EU does that I like as a former kitesurfer is its strong stance on sewage and clean beaches, but it sort of goes in with a lot of what I would call light politics. If the tories try and erode workers rights and environmental laws then like what happened in the 90's when the liberals rose up and became more important. It will happen that the tories get voted out and a national government will be formed reflecting the will of the people.

Apart from the publics views on immigration and laws being made up by people we cant vote out(the EU) this country is very liberal and will always vote that way, when the tories get in it is with liberal minded or small C conservatives like Cameron. May only creeped home in the last election and will get slaughtered in the next one by Corbyn.

Our politicians and systems are not

So if we can have a free trade deal with the EU, post brexit, whats the fuss all about?

Why all end of the world rhetoric?

No services its a trade deal on goods , we mainly export services.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

All of which I believe we would have a veto on. So as long as we don't want It, it doesn't happen. So no, not lies. Leave on the other hand basically made brick up constantly... and when remain brought up the reality of the situation they called it project fear.

It was remain who coined the phrase project fear. Which really is all anyway needs to say about the remain campaign. They had to call it project fear. To quote Obama I believe in the politics of hope not fear.

 

[r-u-s-x]

It was remain who coined the phrase project fear. Which really is all anyway needs to say about the remain campaign. They had to call it project fear. To quote Obama I believe in the politics of hope not fear.

Remain was called project fear, they didn't label themselves it?

It was in my opinion clever spin in order to deflect anything negative, a lot of "fear" has proven to be true... We were not going to pay a penny for the divorce bill remember

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Our politicians and systems are not

No services its a trade deal on goods , we mainly export services.

Our politicans will change with the country votes at general elections. Our systems are very liberal. The courts in this country are very liberal, take immigration which was a huge factor in the referendum. People who have been determined through a court system that they can not be in the country have the right to appeal sometimes up to three times. You can not say that is liberal.

We are a fair minded and liberal country and many public bodies are made up that way. The issues arise when the public feel they are taken advantage of then they go to vote for parties who are more right wing like UKIP.

 

[StephenH]

We are all to blame for this as we all sat back and watched one political party dictate the terms or lack there of, of the most import vote our country has had to take in 50 years.
Then when it was too late, we woke up and here we are. The leavers can't moan too much because they/we walked right into the Tory Barmy army's trap.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Remain was called project fear, they didn't label themselves it?

It was in my opinion clever spin in order to deflect anything negative, a lot of "fear" has proven to be true... We were not going to pay a penny for the divorce bill remember

Yes they did, several of them did. I remember the loathsome george osborne saying it in a press conference himself. Which showed really power political judgement from someone of his experience.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

We are all to blame for this as we all sat back and watched one political party dictate the terms or lack there of, of the most import vote our country has had to take in 50 years.
Then when it was too late, we woke up and here we are. The leavers can't moan too much because they/we walked right into the Tory Barmy army's trap.

To be fair Cameron did try very hard to swing the election remain way. He saw the opinion polls so a few weeks before the referendum he got his chums at facebook to run a project fear campaign to drum up support amongst a target youth audience and then extended the voting signing up date to try and swing the vote remain way but his project fear still did not work.

 

[StephenH]

To be fair Cameron did try very hard to swing the election remain way. He saw the opinion polls so a few weeks before the referendum he got his chums at facebook to run a project fear campaign to drum up support amongst a target youth audience and then extended the voting signing up date to try and swing the vote remain way but his project fear still did not work.

Too many disenfranchised groups used it as a protest vote. Tory party used the groups they care the least about to stick it the centrist side of the country.
Quite clever politically.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Our politicans will change with the country votes at general elections. Our systems are very liberal. The courts in this country are very liberal, take immigration which was a huge factor in the referendum. People who have been determined through a court system that they can not be in the country have the right to appeal sometimes up to three times. You can not say that is liberal.

We are a fair minded and liberal country and many public bodies are made up that way. The issues arise when the public feel they are taken advantage of then they go to vote for parties who are more right wing like UKIP.

Both parties

Yes they did, several of them did. I remember the loathsome george osborne saying it in a press conference himself. Which showed really power political judgement from someone of his experience.

It was an insult aimed at remain campaigners, they are project fear, he may have used it as reference but he did not coin the term. Think you are mis remembering here, he may be a fudgewit but even they are not that stupid.

The former Mayor of London and key figurehead of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson argued that the pro-EU campaign in the 2016 EU referendum campaign was guilty of scaremongering, saying that "the agents of Project Fear" were trying to "spook" the British public into voting against British withdrawal from the EU, adding that "I am ever more convinced that the real risk is to sit back and do nothing, to remain inertly and complacently in an unreformed EU that is hell-bent on a federal project over which we have no control."[15] The phrase was quickly picked up by the British media,


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics)

*Uk government used it when referring to Scottish referendum I think.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Our politicans will change with the country votes at general elections. Our systems are very liberal. The courts in this country are very liberal, take immigration which was a huge factor in the referendum. People who have been determined through a court system that they can not be in the country have the right to appeal sometimes up to three times. You can not say that is liberal.

We are a fair minded and liberal country and many public bodies are made up that way. The issues arise when the public feel they are taken advantage of then they go to vote for parties who are more right wing like UKIP.

That was a response I started but meant to delete, as benefits and negatives of EU has been done to death. it was meant to read not long term thinkers. We always go for the quick pound, i. E. Fracking.

 

[the dza]

So if we can have a free trade deal with the EU, post brexit, whats the fuss all about?

Why all end of the world rhetoric?

Leaving aside those who think the world will end, the problem I see with that kind of deal is the Irish border. I know about services etc. but I'm being generous to the government and saying that they can strike a deal on that as an extra to the Canada model. But I am yet to see how the Irish border problem is solved because 1. The DUP want N. Ireland to be on the same terms with the EU as the rest of the UK and 2. how can there be no hard border when outside the single market and customs union? A hard border risks the Good Friday Agreement and a return to The Troubles, which isn't a price worth paying imo.

 

[DTA]

Remain was called project fear, they didn't label themselves it?

It was in my opinion clever spin in order to deflect anything negative, a lot of "fear" has proven to be true... We were not going to pay a penny for the divorce bill remember

It was brilliant spin... a big part of a dishonest campaign.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We leave we trade freely without free access to the EU, doubt anyone would follow us as everyone has this option now and decided being part of it offers value.

With full access, I imagine Poland straight away and then nationalist governments in Holland and France will point to our deal and use it to gain power then leave on same terms, rinse and repeat until the bloc is of no use and everyone is worse off.

All ifs and buts, however it is what the EU have indicated is at least partially driving their position.

Given that Poland takes out of the pot more than it puts in, and it gains massively from workers enjoying their EU freedom and sending money back home - why would they leave?

And, given they are a net loss to the EU - why would the EU mind?

If you want a cautionary tale, Poland would likely offer a much better option than us.

Holland? I dont know, but Im not sure I see France as having the appetite to leave.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Leaving aside those who think the world will end, the problem I see with that kind of deal is the Irish border. I know about services etc. but I'm being generous to the government and saying that they can strike a deal on that as an extra to the Canada model. But I am yet to see how the Irish border problem is solved because 1. The DUP want N. Ireland to be on the same terms with the EU as the rest of the UK and 2. how can there be no hard border when outside the single market and customs union? A hard border risks the Good Friday Agreement and a return to The Troubles, which isn't a price worth paying imo.

Most certainly a big issue, one I cant honestly say I have a proper handle on yet.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Given that Poland takes out of the pot more than it puts in, and it gains massively from workers enjoying their EU freedom and sending money back home - why would they leave?

And, given they are a net loss to the EU - why would the EU mind?

If you want a cautionary tale, Poland would likely offer a much better option than us.

Holland? I dont know, but Im not sure I see France as having the appetite to leave.

Regardless of how likely France or Netherlands have an apatite to leave now can you see it would make a nationalist/ anti eu party easier to elect in these count if they point to the cake and eat it that was granted to the UK?

I do not think its self preservation but that what they lose by being in the bloc is more than made up by what they get out of it.

Not arguing that they are correct just this is mindset they are going into negotiations, that they will accept short term pain for a longer term stability. Up until now they have kept quite in line with their statements of intent

 

[monkeybarry]

I'm not sure I agree. How could people possibly know all the detail and ramifications? About Ireland, trade, about Farrage essentially being in it for a job and attention...about the pictures of immigrants lining up being a fabrication, about the 350 for the NHS and the numbers which are likely the polar opposite - that being out the EU will cost the UK circa 350m a week. How could they possibly know that, when people with economics and politics degrees didn't?

Honestly?
Intelligence.
It was all there.
If people couldn't see it, that tells it's own story.
I'm very openly anti Brexit (although not necessarily pro EU) and anti Tory.
But I'm a big believer that society gets the country it deserves through its democracy.
And I have to include myself in that.
We get what we deserve, what we want, because they are choices we made.
Ignorance is no excuse, it's cowardice.

 

[monkeybarry]

I voted remain but I'm arguing for brexit.

Which is somewhat irrelevant to my point, which was about the context of voting leave.

But your arguments are more pro free market and (small C) conservatism then Brexit per se. It just so happens there is much alignment.
But even you draw a decent level of distance between (big C) Conservatism and the current Tory govt and delivery of Brexit.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Given that Poland takes out of the pot more than it puts in, and it gains massively from workers enjoying their EU freedom and sending money back home - why would they leave?

And, given they are a net loss to the EU - why would the EU mind?

If you want a cautionary tale, Poland would likely offer a much better option than us.

Holland? I dont know, but Im not sure I see France as having the appetite to leave.

What makes you think Poland is a net loss? Do you mean who pays in and who gets out grants? That's only a very small part of the equation

If that's all that is considered why let them in the first place, why not kick out all negative contributors. The EU is a lot more than redistribution of cash by contributions.