Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

Scara don't play the class warfare card...you know that there is one and that under neo-liberalism your class is winning!

What class do you think is mine?

I'll put money on you being wrong.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The English lawyer who wrote article 50 believes it can be revoked - and it would stand up to legal scrutiny.

As far as the EU goes, they could do without the headache, and it would ensure trade continues with the core nations of Germany, France and the UK staying the corner stone economies. I agree it wouldn’t be without conjecture but all things considered, and as it was a democratic vote with various claims made, I believe the EU would acquiesce.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

The way to revoke A50 is to invoke A49. But A49 automatically commits you to Schengen and the Eurozone.

 

[the dza]

I know that Rabb is very thick but this is an enjoyable skewering by Krishnan Guru-Murthy

https://www.channel4.com/news/domin...at-weve-actually-made-a-positive-step-forward

"Wilful skewing" -- reading back to him the text of his own government's document. Such an arrogant qunt, at least someone seems to have broken his nose once upon a time.

We've had this from Gove now:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oters-can-change-eu-deal-if-they-dont-like-it

Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

He said that after a transition period, the UK would have “full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union”.

______

I might be being a bit thick, but wouldn't that send the Irish border problem back to square one?

 

[milo]

We've had this from Gove now:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oters-can-change-eu-deal-if-they-dont-like-it

Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

He said that after a transition period, the UK would have “full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union”.

______

I might be being a bit thick, but wouldn't that send the Irish border problem back to square one?

It does. The trade deal won't be finalised until after the next election, so theoretically he is right but our course will have been set by then and the Swiss can tell us a bit about how reluctant the EU will be to reopen negotiations with non-members.

I think that the reality is that the Tories will ditch May after March 2019 and the new leader will be focused on the election in 2022 and not Europe.

 

[milo]

The way to revoke A50 is to invoke A49. But A49 automatically commits you to Schengen and the Eurozone.

It is possible that the other member states would agree to let us revoke it if we promise not to be such pricks in future.

There is also the case in the Scottish courts seeking a referral to the CJEU to get a decision on whether it is unilaterally revokable.

 

[scaramanga]

"Wilful skewing" -- reading back to him the text of his own government's document. Such an arrogant qunt, at least someone seems to have broken his nose once upon a time.

We've had this from Gove now:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oters-can-change-eu-deal-if-they-dont-like-it

Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

He said that after a transition period, the UK would have “full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union”.

______

I might be being a bit thick, but wouldn't that send the Irish border problem back to square one?

Makes perfect sense to me.

Sounds like the government and the EU have clarified/agreed that it's customs union with a soft border or freedom with a hard border.

Seeing as it won't be completely agreed until after the next election, he's saying to the public that a Conservative majority will go the freedom route as long as we get rid of the DUP tossers at the next election.

 

[the dza]

Makes perfect sense to me.

Sounds like the government and the EU have clarified/agreed that it's customs union with a soft border or freedom with a hard border.

Seeing as it won't be completely agreed until after the next election, he's saying to the public that a Conservative majority will go the freedom route as long as we get rid of the DUP tossers at the next election.

So basically, vote Tory for a Hard Brexit is the message he's trying to put out?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

What class do you think is mine?

I'll put money on you being wrong.

I'll bet you're a facilitator for the ruling class. Petit Bourgeois. In any event Marx provided two definitions of class, that is a class for itself and a class within itself. You probably are a capitalist in the former sense, that is what you identify with, despite the class you were born into.

 

[Gutter Boy]

"Wilful skewing" -- reading back to him the text of his own government's document. Such an arrogant qunt, at least someone seems to have broken his nose once upon a time.

We've had this from Gove now:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oters-can-change-eu-deal-if-they-dont-like-it

Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

He said that after a transition period, the UK would have “full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union”.

______

I might be being a bit thick, but wouldn't that send the Irish border problem back to square one?

Ireland will have a nationalist majority by the end of the transition period. They are only 38,000 over-18s short at the moment (with a clear majority of under-18s).

 

[Gutter Boy]

So basically, vote Tory for a Hard Brexit is the message he's trying to put out?

Or Corbyn (if he's still around). He champions reunified Ireland and regulatory divergence (state aid and competition laws).

Its the Osborne Tories and Blairite Labour that want Soft Brexit.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You guys actually think we can back peddle on this now?!

If - enormous IF - *ahem* Brexit means brexit *cough* - we decide "You know what? We've changed our minds, and would much rather stay in the EU"

What makes any of you think the EU will just accept it?

All this talk, from many a remainer - of the EU taking effectively punitive measures against us for leaving - what makes you think they wont leverage their position similarly if we choose to stay?

I guarantee, there will never be a return to the status quo. "Brexit means Brexit" will become "EU means EU". We will be IN. FULLY. Or not at all - that will be their take.

No special status, no rebates, no Sterling, and no dissent. Ever closer union will be the order of the day.

And who actually thinks THAT will be acceptable to the UK public? No government is going to take that route, its suicide. They would much rather go off the cliff edge, IMO.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You guys actually think we can back peddle on this now?!

If - enormous IF - *ahem* Brexit means brexit *cough* - we decide "You know what? We've changed our minds, and would much rather stay in the EU"

What makes any of you think the EU will just accept it?

All this talk, from many a remainer - of the EU taking effectively punitive measures against us for leaving - what makes you think they wont leverage their position similarly if we choose to stay?

I guarantee, there will never be a return to the status quo. "Brexit means Brexit" will become "EU means EU". We will be IN. FULLY. Or not at all - that will be their take.

No special status, no rebates, no Sterling, and no dissent. Ever closer union will be the order of the day.

And who actually thinks THAT will be acceptable to the UK public? No government is going to take that route, its suicide. They would much rather go off the cliff edge, IMO.

And what will Brexit itself look like?

I don't personally agree that the EU would punish the UK for remaining. They didn't want us to leave the partnership.

 

[DTA]

You guys actually think we can back peddle on this now?!

If - enormous IF - *ahem* Brexit means brexit *cough* - we decide "You know what? We've changed our minds, and would much rather stay in the EU"

What makes any of you think the EU will just accept it?

All this talk, from many a remainer - of the EU taking effectively punitive measures against us for leaving - what makes you think they wont leverage their position similarly if we choose to stay?

I guarantee, there will never be a return to the status quo. "Brexit means Brexit" will become "EU means EU". We will be IN. FULLY. Or not at all - that will be their take.

No special status, no rebates, no Sterling, and no dissent. Ever closer union will be the order of the day.

And who actually thinks THAT will be acceptable to the UK public? No government is going to take that route, its suicide. They would much rather go off the cliff edge, IMO.

You know what happens when you go off a cliffs edge don't you? Impact after a long fall. You don'
Need a impact assements to tell you that... maybe that' Why these clams never bothered with producing any.

The EU wants the UK in the union. But that might not be the same in 10 years post hard Brexit when our economy has tanked and we will have no negociating position at all... even less than we do now.

We will then have to accept the euro, complete open boarders etc. Everything.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And what will Brexit itself look like?

I don't personally agree that the EU would punish the UK for remaining. They didn't want us to leave the partnership.

We have always been a special case, something of a problem child - you honestly think they wouldnt take the opportunity to fully christen us in the fold?

Thats your prerogative, of course, but genuinely I think its an absolute given they would leverage it to make us a full member.

There is no chance we go back as we were. And the opportunity to take Camerons "deal" is passed. They will push for us all in.

You know what happens when you go off a cliffs edge don't you? Impact after a long fall. You don'
Need a impact assements to tell you that... maybe that' Why these clams never bothered with producing any.

The EU wants the UK in the union. But that might not be the same in 10 years post hard Brexit when our economy has tanked and we will have no negociating position at all... even less than we do now.

We will then have to accept the euro, complete open boarders etc. Everything.

I think you enjoy the doom mongering.

 

[DTA]

I think you enjoy the doom mongering

That's just not true. I just make predictions based on what I see. I predicted the EU would be resolute during these negotiations and give up very little so far I have been proved right.

Were you not the one that was saying that the EU will compromise on trade because they need our financial contribution?

Seems like they have already secured 40bil potentially rising to around 60billion .... And they haven' even started talking trade yet.

Still feel they need us more then we need them?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I still feel it is absolutely a two way street. They need our contribution, they need our trade. That hasnt changed.

I think they have played a blinder on the divorce bill, because - when we do end up securing some sort of deal - theyll take even more money from us.

You, on the other hand, seem rather.... excitable, whenever it comes to sticking the boot into a process that is far from complete and appear to revel in the i told you so's and grand predictions of doom.

 

[DTA]

I still feel it is absolutely a two way street. They need our contribution, they need our trade. That hasnt changed.

I think they have played a blinder on the divorce bill, because - when we do end up securing some sort of deal - theyll take even more money from us.

You, on the other hand, seem rather.... excitable, whenever it comes to sticking the boot into a process that is far from complete and appear to revel in the i told you so's and grand predictions of doom.

It's not about that at all. It's about facts. We have very little leverage I said that from the start. You said that we could buy leverage. The divorce bill puts an end to that mate. Terms of trade will be their terms with very little leeway given. Why? Because they are huge compared to us. It will be the same or worse when we try to negotiate with America for a trade deal.

Not doom and gloom... But yeah I told you soo.... because you know what...I told you so.

 

[scaramanga]

So basically, vote Tory for a Hard Brexit is the message he's trying to put out?

Vote Tory for the only option we have that anyone would recognise as Brexit is probably a better summation of what he's saying.

Seeing as the EU are unwilling to negotiate, we're only left with a very, very soft Brexit (worse than we had before) or a hard Brexit. Neither would have been my choice before the referendum, but hard is clearly better than just giving away more control and getting nothing in return.

 

[DTA]

Just to make it clear if there is a soft Brexit I don't think the economy will tank. We will just be in a worse position than we were as members of the EU.

 

[scaramanga]

I'll bet you're a facilitator for the ruling class. Petit Bourgeois. In any event Marx provided two definitions of class, that is a class for itself and a class within itself. You probably are a capitalist in the former sense, that is what you identify with, despite the class you were born into.

Ah, you mean made up classes invented by the main proponent if what is objectively the worst economic/political system this planet has ever seen.