Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
But it also has state aid laws, competition laws, and freedom of movement, which fundamentally promote neo-liberalism at the expense of society.
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
But it also has state aid laws, competition laws, and freedom of movement, which fundamentally promote neo-liberalism at the expense of society.
I largely agree with you, I voted to remain and would again. I just don't think leaving necessarily means a hard swing to the right for our country, though it's obviously possible if the Tory right get long enough in power post-Brexit.
You're right that a single term can make some lasting changes, wrong in your belief that they were good ones
I'll take that!
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Yes its a nice balance.
How can freedom to move be an expense? It's one of the most fundamental human instincts let alone right. Where would your family be now, if they had not had the freedom to move??
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
I think we've stumbled into a crucial point. Brexit's success depends hugely on the vision of whoever is in power. And that could be two completely opposing visions. Normally in a liberal democracy the path chosen will revert to the lowest common denominator that offends the least people, which would mean little changes.
I find it concerning that Brexit itself is so tied into party politics. What happens if the Conservatives start off on a free market low taxation track, only to voted out, and to be replaced by a high taxation people first Labour party? There will be no Brexit vision and we'll end up compromised on a lot of things. There needs to be some cross party agreement on what the future holds and looks like. Here we are a year and a half after the vote, and the people who are supposedly in charge don't seem to have a clear vision for post Brexit Britian.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Not sure what that shows other than the EU is fairly balanced.
In other news since the Brexit vote the UK has gone from the 5th largest economy in the world to the 6th...according to our Chancellor.
It shows that the EU doesn't allow competition between states and is protectionist in its nature.
For all their talk of free trade, try asking an African coffee grower how free their trade is or an Indian car manufacturer.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Because freedom of movement is designed for big business to be able to undercut pay and conditions by importing cheap labour. It moves workers from poor areas to places where profit can be maximised on an industrial scale, destroying local communities and disincentivising investment in skills
I don't think anyone is against freedom of movement for skilled workers, spouses and generous travel visas. It's exploitation of mass unskilled workers, and the problems that causes in existing communities, that is the issue
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The whole point of democracy is you get to choose a completely new path every 5 years. The recent disenfranchisement is because there's been no choice.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Yet it could be the undoing of Brexit. The UK needs a post Brexit vision. If that is reversed after 5 years we will regress as a nation.
But honestly, I think this is all hypothetical. I still think this whole process is a chronic waste of time, and when push comes to shove, we may not change much or anything at all. People on both sides have the same hunch.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I still think that will be the 2022 general election. Brexit is going to last till 2021 now, so that's the time for the visions to be set out. If someone gets that right, there's no reason why they couldn't do 2 or 3 terms to really embed their new system, to replace Thatcherism like she did to Keynesianism.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
It's scary stuff. We need real competent people managing this idiocy to ensure we aren't impacted to a point where it really damages the economy.
And even as a remainer I want the best for my country. As it's my children's future I worry about. fudge the whataboutery
And even as a remainer I want the best for my country. As it's my children's future I worry about. fudge the whataboutery
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
I kind of feel sorry for these people as they voted for something that wasn't defined. Even those running the campaigns didn't know fully what we were voting on. Indeed we still don't fully know. But there is a lot more understanding now, and these people feel they were duped.
Mark Olive is a 30-year-old serviceman who lives in the south of England. Before the referendum was announced, he had never thought much about the EU, so he tasked himself with reading as much information as he could from all sides. “I was just getting a negative feeling about the EU, like it didn’t serve the interests of our country,” he says. The main reason that he was undecided until referendum day was the tenor of the leave campaign. “When I saw Nigel Farage and his Breaking Point poster, I thought, actually, I don’t like any of the people who want to leave the EU.”
Nonetheless, he went for leave. “I went to sleep thinking that we weren’t going to leave and in the morning I was shocked. I remember when I went to the cafe on camp, I felt very bad straight away. There are Europeans working there and it occurred to me that I hadn’t even thought about them during the campaign. All these issues started popping up. I hadn’t thought about half of them.”
Many regretters report experiencing a visceral emotional jolt when they heard the result. “From the moment I watched the results revealed live on television that night and my vote for leave played a part, I didn’t feel joy,” says “JC”, a 49-year-old former NHS worker from Manchester. “I felt dread and fear over what would unfold for our country. Then it transpired that the leave campaign backtracked on the £350m NHS ad. I knew we’d been fed BS.”
known as Lexit, persuaded that the EU was “a big-business dictatorship that prevented true socialism from being implemented”. “I had misgivings from the morning the result was declared,” he says. “The most enthusiastic leavers appeared to be on the right. I thought: what have I done?” Before the referendum, Berry had emailed the EU requesting clarification of the rules on certain issues. The reply, sufficiently thorough enough to demolish the arguments that he had believed, arrived a few days too late. “I feel that, compared with the Scottish referendum, not enough time was given for ordinary people to learn all the facts. To be honest, I didn’t know anywhere near enough to make such a monumental decision.”
Some leave voters U-turned months later, based on subsequent developments and revelations. John Chalmers, 60, runs a guest house in north Lincolnshire, a region that voted leave by a 2:1 margin. Although he was aware of the economic risk, he was swayed by his friends and neighbours, the rapid influx of eastern European migrants to Lincolnshire and the promise of more money for the NHS. He is now a staunch remainer. “I think we’re aware of a lot more now than we knew during the campaign,” he says. “What to do with this new information? Do we act on it or say no, sorry, the decision’s been made? I think we should act on it.”
I’m quite comfortable with making mistakes and changing my mind. I don’t lose too much sleep over it
Paul Hartley, a 37-year-old mechanical engineer from Lancaster, describes himself as centre-left and instinctively pro-EU, but was turned around at the last minute by his father, who argued in favour of sovereignty and taking back decision-making powers. “That resonated with me,” Hartley says. “I spent weeks convincing my partner to vote remain only to spend the last few days convincing her to vote leave!” (She didn’t.)
He felt regretful as soon as he saw how the victors were framing the result. “Every time I hear a politician talking about immigration and the will of the people, that is not what I voted for at all. The leave vote has been completely hijacked by the extreme right. I thought that common sense would prevail, but that hasn’t happened.” As for his father’s sovereignty argument: “That’s a bit of a red herring. We’ve always had the power to make decisions anyway.” Still, he is sanguine about his error. “I’m quite comfortable with making mistakes and changing my mind. I think that’s important. I wish I’d voted the other way but I don’t lose too much sleep over it.”
Meanwhile, David Towne (not his real name) has literally lost sleep over his decision. A thirtysomething “moderate Conservative” who works for a non-profit in London, he describes his guilt as a kind of psychological crisis. Despite being a longstanding Eurosceptic who preferred a European Free Trade Association-style agreement, he remained open-minded but was turned off by the remain campaign. “I reverted back to my gut feeling, because there was a lot of brick-throwing and smearing,” he says. “I don’t think the remainers I knew were looking to convert anyone to their cause. It was just: let’s denounce you all as Ukippers and racists. This caricature of the angry, immigrant-hating leaver doesn’t ring true for me at all.”
He was “shocked and panicked” by the result. “Nobody in London was happy about it, and it suddenly dawned on me that I’d voted against the interests of my city.” It was a dark time. “I was taking too much responsibility on myself. In retrospect, I’ve realised it’s disproportionate and others are far more responsible. I am just one tiny dot in the electorate. But I just felt totally fudged. I’d done something to harm my country, which I love.”
Mark Olive is a 30-year-old serviceman who lives in the south of England. Before the referendum was announced, he had never thought much about the EU, so he tasked himself with reading as much information as he could from all sides. “I was just getting a negative feeling about the EU, like it didn’t serve the interests of our country,” he says. The main reason that he was undecided until referendum day was the tenor of the leave campaign. “When I saw Nigel Farage and his Breaking Point poster, I thought, actually, I don’t like any of the people who want to leave the EU.”
Nonetheless, he went for leave. “I went to sleep thinking that we weren’t going to leave and in the morning I was shocked. I remember when I went to the cafe on camp, I felt very bad straight away. There are Europeans working there and it occurred to me that I hadn’t even thought about them during the campaign. All these issues started popping up. I hadn’t thought about half of them.”
Many regretters report experiencing a visceral emotional jolt when they heard the result. “From the moment I watched the results revealed live on television that night and my vote for leave played a part, I didn’t feel joy,” says “JC”, a 49-year-old former NHS worker from Manchester. “I felt dread and fear over what would unfold for our country. Then it transpired that the leave campaign backtracked on the £350m NHS ad. I knew we’d been fed BS.”
known as Lexit, persuaded that the EU was “a big-business dictatorship that prevented true socialism from being implemented”. “I had misgivings from the morning the result was declared,” he says. “The most enthusiastic leavers appeared to be on the right. I thought: what have I done?” Before the referendum, Berry had emailed the EU requesting clarification of the rules on certain issues. The reply, sufficiently thorough enough to demolish the arguments that he had believed, arrived a few days too late. “I feel that, compared with the Scottish referendum, not enough time was given for ordinary people to learn all the facts. To be honest, I didn’t know anywhere near enough to make such a monumental decision.”
Some leave voters U-turned months later, based on subsequent developments and revelations. John Chalmers, 60, runs a guest house in north Lincolnshire, a region that voted leave by a 2:1 margin. Although he was aware of the economic risk, he was swayed by his friends and neighbours, the rapid influx of eastern European migrants to Lincolnshire and the promise of more money for the NHS. He is now a staunch remainer. “I think we’re aware of a lot more now than we knew during the campaign,” he says. “What to do with this new information? Do we act on it or say no, sorry, the decision’s been made? I think we should act on it.”
I’m quite comfortable with making mistakes and changing my mind. I don’t lose too much sleep over it
Paul Hartley, a 37-year-old mechanical engineer from Lancaster, describes himself as centre-left and instinctively pro-EU, but was turned around at the last minute by his father, who argued in favour of sovereignty and taking back decision-making powers. “That resonated with me,” Hartley says. “I spent weeks convincing my partner to vote remain only to spend the last few days convincing her to vote leave!” (She didn’t.)
He felt regretful as soon as he saw how the victors were framing the result. “Every time I hear a politician talking about immigration and the will of the people, that is not what I voted for at all. The leave vote has been completely hijacked by the extreme right. I thought that common sense would prevail, but that hasn’t happened.” As for his father’s sovereignty argument: “That’s a bit of a red herring. We’ve always had the power to make decisions anyway.” Still, he is sanguine about his error. “I’m quite comfortable with making mistakes and changing my mind. I think that’s important. I wish I’d voted the other way but I don’t lose too much sleep over it.”
Meanwhile, David Towne (not his real name) has literally lost sleep over his decision. A thirtysomething “moderate Conservative” who works for a non-profit in London, he describes his guilt as a kind of psychological crisis. Despite being a longstanding Eurosceptic who preferred a European Free Trade Association-style agreement, he remained open-minded but was turned off by the remain campaign. “I reverted back to my gut feeling, because there was a lot of brick-throwing and smearing,” he says. “I don’t think the remainers I knew were looking to convert anyone to their cause. It was just: let’s denounce you all as Ukippers and racists. This caricature of the angry, immigrant-hating leaver doesn’t ring true for me at all.”
He was “shocked and panicked” by the result. “Nobody in London was happy about it, and it suddenly dawned on me that I’d voted against the interests of my city.” It was a dark time. “I was taking too much responsibility on myself. In retrospect, I’ve realised it’s disproportionate and others are far more responsible. I am just one tiny dot in the electorate. But I just felt totally fudged. I’d done something to harm my country, which I love.”
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
For experts in voter behaviour or cognitive science, however, this is unsurprising. Humans do not instinctively enjoy changing their minds. Admitting that you were wrong, especially when the original decision has huge ramifications, is a painful and destabilising experience that the brain tends to resist. Research into this kind of denial has given us concepts such as cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
“When you have a strong view about something, you’re likely to reject information that’s contrary to your view, reject the source of the information and rationalise the information,” says Jane Green, professor of political science at the University of Manchester and co-director of the British Election Study. “We select information that’s consistent with our views, because it’s more comfortable and reaffirming.” In fact, it’s physically pleasurable. Some recent studies of confirmation bias indicate that consuming information that supports our beliefs actually produces a dopamine rush.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit
“When you have a strong view about something, you’re likely to reject information that’s contrary to your view, reject the source of the information and rationalise the information,” says Jane Green, professor of political science at the University of Manchester and co-director of the British Election Study. “We select information that’s consistent with our views, because it’s more comfortable and reaffirming.” In fact, it’s physically pleasurable. Some recent studies of confirmation bias indicate that consuming information that supports our beliefs actually produces a dopamine rush.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit