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Politics, politics, politics

r-u-s-x said:
I honestly think you are mistaken in the belief that they are that bothered if we have a hard Brexit and we had no cards (other than veto & a50 from the outset) I don't expect I can change your mind so will leave it there.

What I do predict is we will agree an exit bill with at least 30bn binding regardless of the trade deal.
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Your point about veto is a good one. It really was one of our few cards... does us triggering article 50 mean we can't use It? Is article 50 binding?
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's my ideal outcome:

- A FTA with financial services' wings clipped (which will help our industrial sectors and the north)
- A united Ireland (lets face it, no one in England or Wales actually wants/cares about NI)
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I heard the DUP will love that. What could possibly go wrong.
 
DTA said:
A corbyn government will hurt business much less than a hard Brexit will. Even if you don't believe that, which I'm sure you dont, his term would be only 4 years if the economy tanks. Where as leaving the EU will produce much longer term damage.
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I think it would be wiser to wait & see what his next election manifesto looks like before making sweeping judgements like this...
 
SpurMeUp said:
Furthermore, such a corporation attracting setup would not work with Corbyn's outlook and should he be elected there would a clash of ideologies and vision, undermining the whole premise. Furthermore, the EU would not offer us trade terms if we are undermining them with sexy low tax corporate tax rates.
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Corbyn will take us the other way. We won't be bound by EU competition laws or FoM (for workers or employers). Basically we will nationalise things that under EU law have to be tendered to the private sector.

The beauty of Brexit is that we can be Singapore or have nationalisation. At the 2022 general election we get the freedom to choose something different to the EU's brand of neo-liberalism, which has been forced on us for 25 years.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Corbyn will take us the other way. We won't be bound by EU competition laws or FoM (for workers or employers). Basically we will nationalise things that under EU law have to be tendered to the private sector.

The beauty of Brexit is that we can be Singapore or have nationalisation. At the 2022 general election we get the freedom to choose something different to the EU's brand of neo-liberalism, which has been forced on us for 25 years.
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What if neo-liberal free trade is actually pretty good for the UK!? While trading within the EU we've remained the worlds 5th largest economy. Pretty astonishing for a small island without huge resources and a relatively small population.

Yet I agree it is fascinating - which way will the UK turn if Brexit happens? Could we become a socialist state with state owned enterprise? Why not? I would back that. Or would we go the opposite direction and become a biz haven that puts money over people, like Singapore? The problem is, unless we have a dictator or leaders with a strong democratic mandate, a vision of a new setup will be diluted and scuppered. There are too many existing interests. Both left and right would be tapered, and sadly the UK will end up with a luke warm version of either model.

Post 1960s there has been a lack of vision and belief in a political revolution. So Brexit could be exciting no doubt. We can shake things up and for the better. For me, its a shame we can't do that while keeping seamless trade and free movement with the worlds largest trading block who are also our neighbours. Total freedom to travel and settle anywhere in Europe is great. To be able to sell unencumbered to anywhere in Europe is also fantastic. The EU aligns all countries to allow that to work. Its a lot to give up for an unknown albeit exciting destination.
 
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Neo-liberalism isn't good for the UK. It's good for 1% of the country who keep their money in tax havens. Everyone else are slaves to the economy, doing pointless jobs so they can buy the landfill that Late Capitalism demands. Growth and profit isn't good; happiness and social cohesion is good

I think the EU fundamentally undermines anything else. Freedom of movement undercuts workers and allows companies to hold governments hostage. Lack of belief in politics as a power for good comes from 25 years of disenfranchisement, since we gave away sovereignty at Maastricht.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's my ideal outcome:

- A FTA with financial services' wings clipped (which will help our industrial sectors and the north)
- A united Ireland (lets face it, no one in England or Wales actually wants/cares about NI)
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You are not doing the negotiations and the tories who are want the exact opposite. We may get the fta but it looks increasingly likely that we will bend over in the process.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
Planned economy over neo-liberal economy = good

London becoming more peripheral in global affairs, and more importantly UK affairs = good

London is already the Singapore of Europe. It needs taming and some of the wealth that passes through it being used for the good of UK society instead.
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It is odd that you see the EU as moving us to neoliberalism, without their positive influence we would have moved closer to the US way of doing things, lack of rights and business/money rules.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
Corbyn will take us the other way. We won't be bound by EU competition laws or FoM (for workers or employers). Basically we will nationalise things that under EU law have to be tendered to the private sector.

The beauty of Brexit is that we can be Singapore or have nationalisation. At the 2022 general election we get the freedom to choose something different to the EU's brand of neo-liberalism, which has been forced on us for 25 years.
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Over the past 40 years we have been moving towards pure capitalism from a mixed economy , without the EU handbrake this will just increase in speed. In 20 years time we will be closer to the US philosophy not further away.

In fact the EU has moved more capitalist than it would prefer to be due to our insistence
 
r-u-s-x said:
It is odd that you see the EU as moving us to neoliberalism, without their positive influence we would have moved closer to the US way of doing things, lack of rights and business/money rules.
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I see the biggest barrier to achieving what I want (which is degrowth) as being the EU. It's instruments promote globalisation and work for the engines of profit and greed. In particular their state aid and competition laws, plus freedom of movement, prevent industrial strategies and sustainable localism economies.

Yes, we elected a Reaganist government in 1977 and kind of got stuck with that. But we were the global champions of Keynesianism from the 30s to 1977, so things can change.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I see the biggest barrier to achieving what I want (which is degrowth) as being the EU. It's instruments promote globalisation and work for the engines of profit and greed. In particular their state aid and competition laws, plus freedom of movement, prevent industrial strategies and sustainable localism economies.

Yes, we elected a Reaganist government in 1977 and kind of got stuck with that. But we were the global champions of Keynesianism from the 30s to 1977, so things can change.
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The rest of the country does not agree with your vision - we may get a Labour government but that is only a small diversion to the shift right. Its naive to think the EU is the thing stopping your vision when we are probably the most neo-liberal in the Union.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
The rest of the country does not agree with your vision - we may get a Labour government but that is only a small diversion to the shift right. Its naive to think the EU is the thing stopping your vision when we are probably the most neo-liberal in the Union.
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I sound like a broken record I know, but it only took a 1 term Atlee Labour Government to bring about monumental change that lasted up until Thatcher, some of which is still with us today despite the best efforts of the Tory Party (The NHS, The Welfare State and council housing). We need similar now, I think it has been forgotten what can be done with actual political will to change things. Atlee's government did much more from the rubble of war than what is required today and more than that, the Atlee government changed the political landscape for decades; so much so that Tory governments who followed (until Thatcher) would be positively left-wing (in economic terms) by today's standards.

We can still do that when leaving the EU, though we obviously want to leave in a way that is least harmful to our economy and society.
 
r-u-s-x said:
The rest of the country does not agree with your vision - we may get a Labour government but that is only a small diversion to the shift right. Its naive to think the EU is the thing stopping your vision when we are probably the most neo-liberal in the Union.
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The world is on the cusp of a revolutionary change. Corbyn's socialism won't work either. Automisation and the end of full work will kill off both capitalism and socialism.

True madness is seeing the world as it is, rather than as it could be (that's a quote, not an accusation).
 
Gutter Boy said:
The world is on the cusp of a revolutionary change. Corbyn's socialism won't work either. Automisation and the end of full work will kill off both capitalism and socialism.

True madness is seeing the world as it is, rather than as it could be (that's a quote, not an accusation).
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People have been saying this for decades and capitalism has been chugging along fine, if you really believe this I wont change your mind but I do think you are the outlyer and will be sorely disappointed as without the hand break of the EU we give more power to big business and move more to the US way of doing things rather than away from this.
 
the dza said:
I sound like a broken record I know, but it only took a 1 term Atlee Labour Government to bring about monumental change that lasted up until Thatcher, some of which is still with us today despite the best efforts of the Tory Party (The NHS, The Welfare State and council housing). We need similar now, I think it has been forgotten what can be done with actual political will to change things. Atlee's government did much more from the rubble of war than what is required today and more than that, the Atlee government changed the political landscape for decades; so much so that Tory governments who followed (until Thatcher) would be positively left-wing (in economic terms) by today's standards.

We can still do that when leaving the EU, though we obviously want to leave in a way that is least harmful to our economy and society.
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You're right that a single term can make some lasting changes, wrong in your belief that they were good ones ;)
 
the dza said:
I sound like a broken record I know, but it only took a 1 term Atlee Labour Government to bring about monumental change that lasted up until Thatcher, some of which is still with us today despite the best efforts of the Tory Party (The NHS, The Welfare State and council housing). We need similar now, I think it has been forgotten what can be done with actual political will to change things. Atlee's government did much more from the rubble of war than what is required today and more than that, the Atlee government changed the political landscape for decades; so much so that Tory governments who followed (until Thatcher) would be positively left-wing (in economic terms) by today's standards.

We can still do that when leaving the EU, though we obviously want to leave in a way that is least harmful to our economy and society.
Click to expand...

Talking about broad political direction, I suppose exiting the EU is most associated with a move to the right. The EU is not socialist per say, but it does have some underlying social themes. Working time directive, pollution and environmental laws for example. And Brexit is seen as a way to cut through such controls and embrace a neo-liberal economy and society. We could still change the UKs setup from within the EU to become more socialist, I'm not sure what we have been waiting for all these years? The EU does not control the fundamental ways we structure our society.
 
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