Politics, politics, politics

[glorygloryeze]

I think he'd like a weaker and more divided EU, one of my reasons for voting to stay in was geopolitical. And I think if he can be seen to be stirring sh1t a little bit, it makes him look better at home. That's about the extent of it. There are also other rich billionaire Russians that could make a few quid from Brexit, I don't discount the possibility of Russian private enterprise, not just Kremlin backed bots.

I think putting election results down to Russian meddling, which is often the inference from our media or American media, is just nonsense though.

Indeed; there is as much chance that the Kremlin meddled in any UK elections using social media bots, newspaper headlines etc as there would be of the UK/US/NATO/EU countries meddling in any Russian elections - or those in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, China etc etc

 

[SpurMeUp]

Indeed; there is as much chance that the Kremlin meddled in any UK elections using social media bots, newspaper headlines etc as there would be of the UK/US/NATO/EU countries meddling in any Russian elections - or those in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, China etc etc

The reason for Russia meddling is that the EU and especially US have meddled in Ukraine and Georgia. Millions were spent by the US on undermining the democratically elected Ukrainian pro Russian president. The US lists this cash quite openly, yet all we hear is how Russia meddles.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[DTA]

I think he'd like a weaker and more divided EU, one of my reasons for voting to stay in was geopolitical. And I think if he can be seen to be stirring sh1t a little bit, it makes him look better at home. That's about the extent of it. There are also other rich billionaire Russians that could make a few quid from Brexit, I don't discount the possibility of Russian private enterprise, not just Kremlin backed bots.

I think putting election results down to Russian meddling, which is often the inference from our media or American media, is just nonsense though.

I don't get why its nonsense. The vote was tight. And if there is proof that Russia may have had some influence in the result why are people not more enraged.... especially those who talk about taking back control???

 

[glorygloryeze]

The reason for Russia meddling is that the EU and especially US have meddled in Ukraine and Georgia. Millions were spent by the US on undermining the democratically elected Ukrainian pro Russian president. The US lists this cash quite openly, yet all we hear is how Russia meddles.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Yeah i know and agree; there is major espionage on both sides of the "East vs West" Geopolitical boundary. Always has been.

I just think when we start saying that whole Brexit vote was decided by Russia we are going down very dodgy territory - almost as though there are no other players taking part in propaganda, almost as though people have no direct feeling or experiences to cast their own votes on said feelings or direct experiences.

In fact, shall we say that any previous Labour government that was led by Tony Blair was due to Russian propaganda as well? Just ludicrous, and it makes those who voted remain and spout this as the main reason why the vote went the way it did as befitting the "Remoaner" title that often gets flung around..

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don't get why its nonsense. The vote was tight. And if there is proof that Russia may have had some influence in the result why are people not more enraged.... especially those who talk about taking back control???

You are just getting embarrassing now; or are you trolling?
Perhaps you should take your own advice from before and step away from the EU/Brexit discussions.

Do that - or, in fact why don't you look at my previous posts on why i voted to Leave and tell me what the Russians did to make me vote that way..

 

[Gutter Boy]

I don't get why its nonsense. The vote was tight. And if there is proof that Russia may have had some influence in the result why are people not more enraged.... especially those who talk about taking back control???

Because it's voicing an opinion. It's like arguing that the publication of Chairman Mao's Red Book in 1964 influenced people to vote for Harold Wilson in the general election that year.

If you want control of the media - that's known as North Korea.

If foreign intervention is on the table - then what about Obama's 'back of the queue' speech, or Juncker's punishment threats?

Also, apparently nearly all the bot posts came after the polls had closed - they were mostly in the days after the vote.

 

[DTA]

You are just getting embarrassing now; or are you trolling?
Perhaps you should take your own advice from before and step away from the EU/Brexit discussions.

Do that - or, in fact why don't you look at my previous posts on why i voted to Leave and tell me what the Russians did to make me vote that way..

Nah mate. It's You that is embarrassingly not being able to to grasp a very simple concepts that do not fit inside your understanding... or maybe you are trolling

Sigh...let me try again.... I'm not saying that you voted for Brexit because of Russian digital propaganda. I'm not saying that anyone on this forum did... or any spurs fan did...

But it did have a influence on some people that is without question. As soon as something written/created deceminated by a cyber agent is shared or even liked it's had an influence. That influence maybe to just reinforce existing views... or tilt views a certain way.

So there was unquestionably some influence.

Now on to your claim about there always being certain influences on the way people vote. Yes of course. But digital propaganda the way the Russians are doing it, is different. The way social media works, the ability to quite frankly almost psychologically profile INDVIDUALS from your target audience (When advertising) and then be given a list of who reacted and how. Couple this with the before mentioned affect of people you 'know' having more of an ability to influence you or your opinions then those that are separated from us in some way, the 'elite' for example.

And what you have is a very new phenomenon. The power of which, we don't fully understand yet.

But what I know from utilsing facebook advertising coupled with a slithering of an understanding of psychology is, it's powerful and it works. And if I can work that out from a studio in east London then Putin who is smarter, has invested millions into this would be doing this in a lot better and more complicated way than I could ever imagine.

Now I know why he is doing it. I kind of respect him for doing it. because with a fraction of the budget of what it would normally take he has subverted western Democracy that is without question... The only questions are

To what extent?
What we going to do about it?

 

[scaramanga]

The vote wasn't that tight - about 1.3M votes wasn't it?

That would make any russian attempt at influencing the election the most effective marketing campaign in that timescale by a factor of about 100.

 

[DTA]

Because it's voicing an opinion. It's like arguing that the publication of Chairman Mao's Red Book in 1964 influenced people to vote for Harold Wilson in the general election that year.

If you want control of the media - that's known as North Korea.

If foreign intervention is on the table - then what about Obama's 'back of the queue' speech, or Juncker's punishment threats?

Also, apparently nearly all the bot posts came after the polls had closed - they were mostly in the days after the vote.

Re Obama and Juncker despite the fact that they were rounded upon by leave. I think there is a difference between overt up front opinions based on what they see as facts. Compared to covert your 'mate' telling you this... I think one will be dismissed as part of the elite by some and one will have peer sway over you.

But I also think we are just scratching the surface of just how it's being used. I fully expect the complexities of how the Russians are using it to be above the understanding of most on this forum including myself.

 

[DTA]

The vote wasn't that tight - about 1.3M votes wasn't it?

That would make any russian attempt at influencing the election the most effective marketing campaign in that timescale by a factor of about 100.

In what timescale?

 

[NoLimits01]

Research suggests that the 19-28 age group are the highest users of social media

Recent research also suggests that the 18-24 age group are the most susceptible to online propaganda and radicalisation


But.....


The 18-24 age group were the highest percentage of remainers

So does this mean that Putin's cash was wasted as it clearly failed to hit the most susceptible to online propaganda and radicalisation

 

[scaramanga]

Nah mate. It's You that is embarrassingly not being able to to grasp a very simple concepts that do not fit inside your understanding... or maybe you are trolling

Sigh...let me try again.... I'm not saying that you voted for Brexit because of Russian digital propaganda. I'm not saying that anyone on this forum did... or any spurs fan did...

But it did have a influence on some people that is without question. As soon as something written/created deceminated by a cyber agent is shared or even liked it's had an influence. That influence maybe to just reinforce existing views... or tilt views a certain way.

So there was unquestionably some influence.

Now on to your claim about there always being certain influences on the way people vote. Yes of course. But digital propaganda the way the Russians are doing it, is different. The way social media works, the ability to quite frankly almost psychologically profile INDVIDUALS from your target audience (When advertising) and then be given a list of who reacted and how. Couple this with the before mentioned affect of people you 'know' having more of an ability to influence you or your opinions then those that are separated from us in some way, the 'elite' for example.

And what you have is a very new phenomenon. The power of which, we don't fully understand yet.

But what I know from utilsing facebook advertising coupled with a slithering of an understanding of psychology is, it's powerful and it works. And if I can work that out from a studio in east London then Putin who is smarter, has invested millions into this would be doing this in a lot better and more complicated way than I could ever imagine.

Now I know why he is doing it. I kind of respect him for doing it. because with a fraction of the budget of what it would normally take he has subverted western Democracy that is without question... The only questions are

To what extent?
What we going to do about it?

You know that influencing via social media is precisely what Corbyn is doing, right?

If he wins the next election do we have another because of it?

 

[scaramanga]

In what timescale?

It was 48hrs I think I read.

 

[DTA]

It was 48hrs I think I read.

Yeah I don' believe it was just 48 hours though. I think that was just part of it.

At the bare minimum the 'list building' would have been going on for months if not years.

Then there is the influence of firms like Cambridge Analytica (I think that's what they are called)

I believe this is much more complex then we think it is.

 

[DTA]

You know that influencing via social media is precisely what Corbyn is doing, right?

If he wins the next election do we have another because of it?

Completely agree that is what he is doing.

And there should be debate around it's use to be honest... But whatever he is... he is not a Russian agent is he?

 

[DTA]

Research suggests that the 19-28 age group are the highest users of social media

Recent research also suggests that the 18-24 age group are the most susceptible to online propaganda and radicalisation


But.....


The 18-24 age group were the highest percentage of remainers

So does this mean that Putin's cash was wasted as it clearly failed to hit the most susceptible to online propaganda and radicalisation

Do you believe that Putin's cash was wasted? I find that very hard to believe.

But to answer your point.

I believe what the Russians were doing is much more nuanced than that.

Just a simple example of what you can do on facebook advertising, you can target people on what books they read, what tv shows they watch what politicians they follow.

None of these targeting Factors are new... But spread over a 100s of fields you begin to get quite an accurate idea of the psychology of the person if you know what you are doing of course

 

[scaramanga]

Completely agree that is what he is doing.

And there should be debate around it's use to be honest... But whatever he is... he is not a Russian agent is he?

You've read his manifesto haven't you?

 

[DTA]

You've read his manifesto haven't you?

 

[NoLimits01]

Do you believe that Putin's cash was wasted? I find that very hard to believe.

But to answer your point.

I believe what the Russians were doing is much more nuanced than that.

Just a simple example of what you can do on facebook advertising, you can target people on what books they read, what tv shows they watch what politicians they follow.

None of these targeting Factors are new... But spread over a 100s of fields you begin to get quite an accurate idea of the psychology of the person if you know what you are doing of course

I'm sorry but I don't get your argument.

The demographics show that those most likely to be influenced by social media were the ones that voted to remain

Unless it was so nuanced that no one noticed

 

[scaramanga]

I'm sorry but I don't get your argument.

The demographics show that those most likely to be influenced by social media were the ones that voted to remain

Unless it was so nuanced that no one noticed

It's possible, however unlikely that the younger voters would have voted for remain at 80-90% instead of the 70% they did without these posts.

As it's a pure "more votes wins" situation, you don't need to win over a group, just move the needle.

1.3m votes is a big needle though, and to my knowledge, that's an unprecedented number for any political or marketing campaign in that medium.