Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

Serious question are you trolling now?????

I am several others gave reasons for voting out those reasons were long held positions and project fear which is clearly ongoing is not going to change that.

I respect your opinion and your right to have an opinion but I will put this in very strong language now. Your are absolutely pathetic for trying to pass of your hopes and wishes as other peoples opinions. You and people like you with your trolling your constant and down right patronising and pathetic attempts to discredit the way people think are truly pathetic.

What is saddest some 18 months after the vote is that you people still can not come to terms with the fact that millions in this country voted for something you do not like. I hated Gordon Brown after he stole my pension, could not believe people kept voting for new labour, but i got on with it. Show some maturity and try to understand millions of people voted out, and if opinion polls are to be believed quite a lot of the ones that voted to remain had serious issues with the EU as well but decided as was their right to vote for the status quo despite reservations.

To have to keep telling you the same right is boring, it is not that I or others have changed our opinion it is that you can not accept people who have different opinions to yours. You are showing yourself up to be bigoted and condescending, and you people still not understand why people voted out.

As for the electorate being misled over the referendum campaign, i believe this is in reference to the bus and the nhs money thing. Well the thing that probably swung the referendum was the immigration issues(no where close to being the biggest issue for me) and it has been proven due to the comments coming from Brussels that we can not have control of our borders and stay inside the EU. So on the biggest issue for most on Brexit, they have not been lied to, to get what they want they have to leave the EU.

Lastly if you insist on suggesting and hinting that people who voted for Brexit have now changed their mind because we are fed up of having to continually explain the reasons we voted for it, which have been done to death. I shall report you as a troll, you have moved from the debating part of the thread and I feel the is a clear case for the mods looking into trolling on your last post.

Goodnight to you fellow Tottenham fan.

What do you mean ”you people"!? I wasn't trolling before but I am now.

It could not be clearer that you haven't changed your minds. It's starkly clear. But it seems Leave voters are increasingly 'bored' of the subject as things are not going too well. That is all.

Reading the news today, the UK will still be ruled over by the European court post exit, and the daily €1 trillion that clears through London is being targeted by Frankfurt. So we are not getting the promised sovereignty, and we're also in danger of losing out financially. But I know you're bored. Apologies sweetheart.


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[Danishfurniturelover]

You people is the remainers, those smug people who think only their opinion is the one that matters. Things are not not going well, they are going as expected. It is a negotiation it will take a while to get where we want to be, some want to have control of borders others want to get control of the law system and so on and so on. It will take time to get full control of everything.

Unfortunately civil servants have admitted to actively working against the wishes of the people, it is clear much of the main stream media are doing the same. That is why it is boring to keep stating ones position.

I shall not be replying to your posts as you have now become an ignored poster so I will now be able to view anything you write.

Also as you admit to trolling I am reporting you to the mods, they will do as they see fit. I am content that none of my posts in this thread have been improper or broken any rules despite clearly being targeted by a troll and being attacked for stated political position, which as it got 17 million votes can be considered a main stream position.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You people is the remainers, those smug people who think only their opinion is the one that matters. Things are not not going well, they are going as expected. It is a negotiation it will take a while to get where we want to be, some want to have control of borders others want to get control of the law system and so on and so on. It will take time to get full control of everything.

Unfortunately civil servants have admitted to actively working against the wishes of the people, it is clear much of the main body of running water media are doing the same. That is why it is boring to keep stating ones position.

I shall not be replying to your posts as you have now become an ignored poster so I will now be able to view anything you write.

Also as you admit to trolling I am reporting you to the mods, they will do as they see fit. I am content that none of my posts in this thread have been improper or broken any rules despite clearly being targeted by a troll and being attacked for stated political position, which as it got 17 million votes can be considered a main body of running water position.

Cheers. I won't bother reporting your post on the other hand. I can take being (unfairly) called bigoted and pathetic. My post which riled you wasn't directed at you, but at Scara. Reading the Sissoko thread there seems to be a lot of angst on here today. Maybe its winter closing in on a dreary Monday with no weekend Spurs fun. Despite you not reading my posts, I'll continue to read yours.

 

[the dza]

Things are not not going well, they are going as expected. It is a negotiation it will take a while to get where we want to be, some want to have control of borders others want to get control of the law system and so on and so on. It will take time to get full control of everything.

Unfortunately civil servants have admitted to actively working against the wishes of the people, it is clear much of the main body of running water media are doing the same. That is why it is boring to keep stating ones position.

I think, whether you voted leave or remain, it is a sensible policy to transition away from the EU, rather than just cut the cord and see what happens. I don't think the government have enough time to get everything in place, as things stand. So if they need a transitional period where we are still in the EU, but gradually getting things sorted for being outside of it, then we should take that period, whether that's 2 years or 3 or 4 years. Getting things right is more important, surely, than getting out at all costs. There are people in the Tory party at the moment, who don't seem to give a sh1t what happens just so long as we are completely out of the EU asap. That's just crazy -- it's ok for most of them, they are rich enough to be insulated from any fallout.

I accept that there are those on the remain side who would look to subvert the referendum result and use any transitional period as in indefinite delay, in effect never leaving the EU. BUT, that's not a good reason to go to the other extreme and cut all ties before we, as a country, are properly prepared.

The country voted to leave, so we'll leave. But let's not be mental about it; let's get it right and do it in a measured way, whoever is in government, be that Tory or Labour.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Are you a leave voter who has since changed your opinion?

Remainer, then and now.

 

[Parklaner81]

Remainer, then and now.

In that case, I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. To have been 'mis-sold' something implies that you 'bought' it in the first place. Therefore, a Leave voter who has since changed their position could properly make your argument. You on the other hand weren't mis-sold anything. You were simply out-voted.

 

[parklane1]

The content of this thread doesn't back you up. It does seem to show that those aligned with Leave are indeed 'bored' of defending their position as it gets harder to justify. If leaves argument was strong and clear, there would be no shortage of I told u so proclamations. But now things are not working out as outlined/ promised those people are 'bored' [emoji23]


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The only thing you are right about is the bolded word bored, as i said earlier the boring bit is the posters ( mostly yours) who keep rehashing the same old rubbish over and over again. Anyone who believed this exit would be wrapped up quickly needs to have a reality check, the biggest boredom is those who STILL can not accept that the result was against their choice, and keep screaming and bitching about it.

 

[Parklaner81]

I think, whether you voted leave or remain, it is a sensible policy to transition away from the EU, rather than just cut the cord and see what happens. I don't think the government have enough time to get everything in place, as things stand. So if they need a transitional period where we are still in the EU, but gradually getting things sorted for being outside of it, then we should take that period, whether that's 2 years or 3 or 4 years. Getting things right is more important, surely, than getting out at all costs.

Wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, as a unrepentent Leave voter. It is the sensible route to take (though I'd have to draw the line before 4 years!). The only proviso I would add, as you go on to hint at yourself, is that the end-point of leaving is accepted as settled.

However, I very much doubt that this is actually accepted. Perhaps if it were, the more extreme elements of the 'Leave' camp that you refer to would be marginalised, but as things stand, both 'extremes' - remain/overturn the referendum result at all costs, and leave at all costs - will stay in play.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The only thing you are right about is the bolded word bored, as i said earlier the boring bit is the posters ( mostly yours) who keep rehashing the same old rubbish over and over again. Anyone who believed th

Looks like you were so bored you nodded off mid post!

You're not tell me there is no Brexit news today!? The papers seem awash with Brexit content. My posts refereed to that new content. I am confused. Do you find the news that the UK will still answer to the EU court boring? Personally I do too, but I didn't vote for or care about sovereignty. Sovereignty as a concept I find ludicrous (rather than boring). The news that Frankfurt is trying to lure traders away from London with profit shares is far more interesting https://www.theguardian.com/busines...euro-clearing-uk-deutsche-borse-london-brexit

Apologies, I think I've been mixing you up with Parklaner81, I'd wondered what happened to you picture!

 

[the dza]

Wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, as a unrepentent Leave voter. It is the sensible route to take (though I'd have to draw the line before 4 years!). The only proviso I would add, as you go on to hint at yourself, is that the end-point of leaving is accepted as settled.

However, I very much doubt that this is actually accepted. Perhaps if it were, the more extreme elements of the 'Leave' camp that you refer to would be marginalised, but as things stand, both 'extremes' - remain/overturn the referendum result at all costs, and leave at all costs - will stay in play.

I think the 'remain at all costs' types would accept transition, if only because it buys them time. With the Tories in a minority government though, there is no chance of silencing the 'leave at all costs' at the other end of the spectrum; I assume that's why May went to the polls in the first place -- to get a bigger majority and not be beholden to the wing-nut element of her party -- but she is such a poor politician she misjudged everything massively and lost the small majority she had, creating an even more chaotic environment and emboldening the likes of Johnson and Rees Mogg even further.

I'm biased, I want to see a Labour government regardless. But the only way I can see a Brexit with a sensible transition and a bit more acceptance of the realities is if Labour are in government, even if they are a minority government. That's because they don't have a rabid leave element -- though they do have a few rabid remainers -- and the leadership are Eurosceptics, with most Labour constituencies voting to leave, even if most Labour voters voted to remain. That balance would lead to a more pragmatic approach to the whole thing, imo (though as I say, I am biased).

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think the 'remain at all costs' types would accept transition, if only because it buys them time. With the Tories in a minority government though, there is no chance of silencing the 'leave at all costs' at the other end of the spectrum; I assume that's why May went to the polls in the first place -- to get a bigger majority and not be beholden to the wing-nut element of her party -- but she is such a poor politician she misjudged everything massively and lost the small majority she had, creating an even more chaotic environment and emboldening the likes of Johnson and Rees Mogg even further.

I'm biased, I want to see a Labour government regardless. But the only way I can see a Brexit with a sensible transition and a bit more acceptance of the realities is if Labour are in government, even if they are a minority government. That's because they don't have a rabid leave element -- though they do have a few rabid remainers -- and the leadership are Eurosceptics, with most Labour constituencies voting to leave, even if most Labour voters voted to remain. That balance would lead to a more pragmatic approach to the whole thing, imo (though as I say, I am biased).

What is a pragmatic approach?

The problem is Brexit in economic terms is either 1) downgraded EU membership (Norway model where we are faxed new laws and have no say in them) or 2) hard brexit where we go for broke and try to become a low tax, ultra free market haven that attracts investors from around the world. The Singapore model if you like. Is either pragmatic?

 

[the dza]

What is a pragmatic approach?

The problem is Brexit in economic terms is either 1) downgraded EU membership (Norway model where we are faxed new laws and have no say in them) or 2) hard brexit where we go for broke and try to become a low tax, ultra free market haven that attracts investors from around the world. The Singapore model if you like. Is either pragmatic?

As many of @milo 's posts allude to, Brexit is a very complicated process. So, imo, pragmatism dictates a period of transition that gives us time to go through the process without totally phucking our economy nor ignoring the political realities of the referendum result and the reasons behind it.

 

[Parklaner81]

I think the 'remain at all costs' types would accept transition, if only because it buys them time.

That's exactly the type of concern I would have as a leave voter - it buys them time to carry on trying everything they can to overturn the referendum result.

In my opinion, one of the effects of this threat is to push more moderate Leave supporters toward a 'hard' brexit, and away from the more reasonable approach that you and I agree on...

 

[SpurMeUp]

As many of @milo 's posts allude to, Brexit is a very complicated process. So, imo, pragmatism dictates a period of transition that gives us time to go through the process without totally phucking our economy nor ignoring the political realities of the referendum result and the reasons behind it.

I totally agree Brexit is startlingly complex. It's also why it's interesting. Each day there's something new to consider. The UK is not setup to navigate Brexit and the more time the better. But the notion that there is a pragmatic outcome to it all is interesting. Is there? Or are we just delaying either a brick storm or the benefits that will come with trade freedom?

To my mind Brexit pragmatism is to take the themes of Brexit, what matters most to people, and to achieve them from within the EU. To control EU migrants with registers and to cut non-EU migrants - who represent the majority of the migrants coming to the UK. To invest in education and raise the abilities of those who traditionally can't get decent jobs, and feel disaffected when others come in from elsewhere and take the work. To invest in national innovation and production and attract international investment. All things we can do now. Why do we need to exit the worlds largest customs union to do this?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Looks like you were so bored you nodded off mid post!

You're not tell me there is no Brexit news today!? The papers seem awash with Brexit content. My posts refereed to that new content. I am confused. Do you find the news that the UK will still answer to the EU court boring? Personally I do too, but I didn't vote for or care about sovereignty. Sovereignty as a concept I find ludicrous (rather than boring). The news that Frankfurt is trying to lure traders away from London with profit shares is far more interesting https://www.theguardian.com/busines...euro-clearing-uk-deutsche-borse-london-brexit

Apologies, I think I've been mixing you up with Parklaner81, I'd wondered what happened to you picture!

Seems odd you'd happily outsource who makes decisions that affect every aspect of your life, but are concern that the capitalists who bleed the 99% dry can do so from London rather than Frankfurt

 

[the dza]

To my mind Brexit pragmatism is to take the themes of Brexit, what matters most to people, and to achieve them from within the EU. To control EU migrants with registers and to cut non-EU migrants - who represented the majority of the migrants coming to the UK. To invest in education and raise the abilities of those who traditionally can't get decent jobs, and feel disaffected when others come in from elsewhere and take the work. To invest in national innovation and production and attract international investment. All things we can do now. Why do we need to exit the worlds largest customs union to do this?

Hopefully, an appropriate transition period would give the government time to address these things. Reform from within the EU is too much to ask politically imo, but reform from within the single market/customs union, maybe that's do-able. But what seems certain is that these thing will take time and a lot of co-operation and the loons like Johnson would rather see us just bounce out of the whole lot and hope that positive thinking will see us right. Which is insane.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Seems odd you'd happily outsource who makes decisions that affect every aspect of your life, but are concern that the capitalists who bleed the 99% dry can do so from London rather than Frankfurt

Now I'm bored. You can do better than that!

I'd happily have the EU look after dull bureaucratic trade laws and save the UK having a massive Customs Department, yes. The EU has had a positive effect on my life. The UK prospered within it. As for your other point, how much tax revenue do we generate from the city of London? What will be cut first, schools or hospitals, if we lose x million or billion from the exchequer?

 

[Gutter Boy]

What is a pragmatic approach?

The problem is Brexit in economic terms is either 1) downgraded EU membership (Norway model where we are faxed new laws and have no say in them) or 2) hard brexit where we go for broke and try to become a low tax, ultra free market haven that attracts investors from around the world. The Singapore model if you like. Is either pragmatic?

There's definitely a third way

A socially liberal but economically managed economy. A post-neo-liberal/neo-Keynesian approach that renationalises energy and transport, tells damaging the financial services sector to jog on, and structurally rebalances its economy so it an compete in the world because it does useful things well. An economy that serves its society, rather than a society that serves its economy.

 

[Gutter Boy]

To my mind Brexit pragmatism is to take the themes of Brexit, what matters most to people, and to achieve them from within the EU. To control EU migrants with registers and to cut non-EU migrants - who represent the majority of the migrants coming to the UK. To invest in education and raise the abilities of those who traditionally can't get decent jobs, and feel disaffected when others come in from elsewhere and take the work. To invest in national innovation and production and attract international investment. All things we can do now. Why do we need to exit the worlds largest customs union to do this?

We had 25 years of that not only failing, but actively moving in the opposite direction.

The EU is so dominated by the neo-liberal interests of big business, that no other way is possible from within. There's no incentives to invest in skills or curb immigration, because they are counter to the engines of profit. Protecting the right to import cheaper labour is the heart of the EU project.

 

[SpurMeUp]

There's definitely a third way

A socially liberal but economically managed economy. A post-neo-liberal/neo-Keynesian approach that renationalises energy and transport, tells damaging the financial services sector to jog on, and structurally rebalances its economy so it an compete in the world because it does useful things well. An economy that serves its society, rather than a society that serves its economy.

I studied in Communist Cuba. It is a truly amazing country, partly because of its alternative economy. But there was lots of frustration as well. What you're suggesting is not a million miles away from the communist ideal. I just don't think it could be imposed onto our society. That said, Marx believed communism would evolve out of advanced capitalism, so maybe humanity can evolve capitalism into something more collective.


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