Politics, politics, politics

[glasgowspur]

I think they did, but they did so 35 years ago, not last summer, my mother, sadly now dead, was a committed racist, it was her hobby, my father, who must have been my liberal influence voted leave last july, and was surprised when I asked, "why the fudge did you do that, you have 4 grandchildren, what the fudge is wrong with you?" he thought he was doing the right thing, because immigrants take all our jobs right...

There's been a massive disconnect in this country, erroneous expectations and delusions of grandeur.

People can huff and puff about new trade until the cows come home (Dutch cows), but the facts are, that we had one successful industry in the UK, banking, and we are chasing that out the door as quickly as the education system has ejected generations of illiterate and lazy wasters who think they are owed a living. We don't have the intelligence or the work ethic to rebuild our manufacturing economy, and even if we did, it's pointless because machines can make everything now, manufacturing is a dead end, we need scientists and doctors and artists, people who can drive us on and open new economies.

But, this country has had enough of experts, of elites, of endeavour, thus we circle the drain.

Little england has never been littler. I'm ashamed to be british.

There's a little bit of everything in there, truth and nonsense.
It's not racist to say immigrants take jobs, it may not be a fact, but it's not necessarily racist either. I actually find it more racist to think that it's better to bring in foreigners to do menial low skill jobs because our people are better than that.
Want a holiday want to go to uni, want a new car, go pick fruit for a summer and save up.

The education system isn't at fault for producing lazy illiterate people with high expectations . That's actually the parents and grandparents faults filling their head with guff about them being "special", "precious" who deserve better and giving them everything they want.

We actually have several excellent and world leader business sectors, banking maybe be the one that grabs the headlines but it's not the only one.

I do agree about the disconnect, but I don't think thats just a UK issue or even an national level problem. Individuals don't seem to have a clue about the world they live in outside how it affects them on a very narrow day to day basis.
The ability to see or think further than the thought that's in your mind at the moment seems to have become impossible. Consequences of your actions spent seem to exist anymore.

 

[StephenH]

I have to agree with last two posts to a large degree!
Controlling imergration is not strictly racist, it does though get used by the far right to further thier aims.
The conservatives played the population like fiddle with the whole Brexit thing!
Played to that disconnect perfectly for their ends.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I agree with that part of your post ( bolded), however you are way wrong when you say ( dominated the vast majority of leavers) , i know many who voted to come out and not one of them did so because of race. I fear you have got caught up with the smears that have been branded about by some of those who wanted to remain. Maybe you are not one of those who accused those who voted out of being racist but many have done and its been hinted at in this thread by a few.

I know plenty (Essex) who voted due to immigration - not necessarily race

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think they did, but they did so 35 years ago, not last summer, my mother, sadly now dead, was a committed racist, it was her hobby, my father, who must have been my liberal influence voted leave last july, and was surprised when I asked, "why the fudge did you do that, you have 4 grandchildren, what the fudge is wrong with you?" he thought he was doing the right thing, because immigrants take all our jobs right...

There's been a massive disconnect in this country, erroneous expectations and delusions of grandeur.

People can huff and puff about new trade until the cows come home (Dutch cows), but the facts are, that we had one successful industry in the UK, banking, and we are chasing that out the door as quickly as the education system has ejected generations of illiterate and lazy wasters who think they are owed a living. We don't have the intelligence or the work ethic to rebuild our manufacturing economy, and even if we did, it's pointless because machines can make everything now, manufacturing is a dead end, we need scientists and doctors and artists, people who can drive us on and open new economies.

But, this country has had enough of experts, of elites, of endeavour, thus we circle the drain.

Little england has never been littler. I'm ashamed to be british.

My parents still felt betrayed by the 1973 decision/1975 referendum. They were explicitly promised it was solely economic co-operation, not political integration. They voted to correct that wrong.

 

[StephenH]

My parents still felt betrayed by the 1973 decision/1975 referendum. They were explicitly promised it was solely economic co-operation, not political integration. They voted to correct that wrong.

My parents were the same sadly both are no longer around. I know when one is around parents with strong views it can rub off, it is only natural.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I have to agree with last two posts to a large degree!
Controlling imergration is not strictly racist, it does though get used by the far right to further thier aims.
The conservatives played the population like fiddle with the whole Brexit thing!
Played to that disconnect perfectly for their ends.

Why do you say Conservatives, when there were leavers/remainers on all sides?

What are the far rights aims?.....and how are they getting on with that?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Why do you say Conservatives, when there were leavers/remainers on all sides?

What are the far rights aims?.....and how are they getting on with that?

Definitely. Everyone knew the middle-class shire Tory heartland would vote leave. It was the Labour not convincing the working class vote to remain that was decisive (Corbyn's design, not poor performance).

We have a (thankfully) very small far right in the racist/fascist/BNP/EDL sense (compared to say France or Austria). The economic right are quite divided between the Atlantasim of Liam Fox and the pro-EU neo-liberal consensus of the CBI.

 

[glasgowspur]

Definitely. Everyone knew the middle-class shire Tory heartland would vote leave. It was the Labour not convincing the working class vote to remain that was decisive (Corbyn's design, not poor performance).

We have a (thankfully) very small far right in the racist/fascist/BNP/EDL sense (compared to say France or Austria). The economic right are quite divided between the Atlantasim of Liam Fox and the pro-EU neo-liberal consensus of the CBI.

Far right and alt-rigbt are just the trendy bogeyman in the same that in the past the commies, bolshies, hippies etc have been.
It means nothing.

I still can't figure Corbyn or what he wants out. He is exactly what I talk about in my earlier post, no thought for the consequences of anything he does or says.
Even more worrying I can figure out how he got where he is.

 

[StephenH]

Why do you say Conservatives, when there were leavers/remainers on all sides?

What are the far rights aims?.....and how are they getting on with that?

Conservatives- The vote was a manifesto pledge and has a bee in the party's bonnet since well .the 70's.
Far right - anti globalism and isolationism.

Very simplified answers - there are others far more articulate than me on here, that will explaine more fully.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Why do you say Conservatives, when there were leavers/remainers on all sides?

What are the far rights aims?.....and how are they getting on with that?

Corbyn is clearly a leaver, one of the reasons I came close to voting for him and despite my miss givings about his economics I am pretty sure I will next time unless Davis or Patel are the tory leader.

The thing with UKIP is they went on and on about immigration and i agree it probably swung it for us but it turned off a lot of central and lefty types who if you had an in depth conversation with them would be pro brexit they just do not want to associate with UKIP.

I voted UKIP in local and euro elections and had a membership with them for 3 years, I went off them because of their obsession with expanding the military, opposition to wind farms and very homophobic views(I am someone who would be classed a close friend of the gays).

UKIP got us the referendum and for that I am grateful, but it needs more people like Corbyn to come out and say what is wrong with the EU. I consider myself pretty centre but I guess we all like to think of ourselves like that. Pro gay marriage and adoption, pro womens choice to terminate a pregnancy, pro controlled immigration, pro free trade and opposed to protectionism, pro animal rights, cares about the environment. Really I could be a liberal if they were not so fudging useless.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I agree with that part of your post ( bolded), however you are way wrong when you say ( dominated the vast majority of leavers) , i know many who voted to come out and not one of them did so because of race. I fear you have got caught up with the smears that have been branded about by some of those who wanted to remain. Maybe you are not one of those who accused those who voted out of being racist but many have done and its been hinted at in this thread by a few.

No your not a racist, you are however a stupid inbred knuckle dragging neanderthals who believed what a spiv wrote on the side of a bus about the NHS getting more money, at least that is what used to be said about leavers now I guess they have gone full circle and it is back at the racist thing.

 

[StephenH]

Far right and alt-rigbt are just the trendy bogeyman in the same that in the past the commies, bolshies, hippies etc have been.
It means nothing.

I still can't figure Corbyn or what he wants out. He is exactly what I talk about in my earlier post, no thought for the consequences of anything he does or says.
Even more worrying I can figure out how he got where he is.

Labour would never have had a vote and Jesse is all over the place (nothing new there) when it comes to Europe/Brexit. But Jesse will never have the bottle to go against, probably correctly, a national vote.

 

[StephenH]

Corbyn is clearly a leaver.

Jeremy is above all else, fully paid up pragmatist!
A leaver?
Who the hell knows!

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Jeremy is above all else, fully paid up pragmatist!
A leaver?
Who the hell knows!

The only thing he is a paid up member of is the brick hats club, I am dreading autumn and him bringing out that awful black hat he wears. I know a lot about hats and what looks good and that dont. Nice fella though. Makes me wonder if he gets in would people turn on him like they did Clegg when he breaks promises?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Far right and alt-rigbt are just the trendy bogeyman in the same that in the past the commies, bolshies, hippies etc have been.
It means nothing.

I still can't figure Corbyn or what he wants out. He is exactly what I talk about in my earlier post, no thought for the consequences of anything he does or says.
Even more worrying I can figure out how he got where he is.

Corbyn was on the leave side in the 1975 referendum, over Maastricht in the 90s and the Lisbon treaty in the 00s. He's an ideological leaver - always has been. He's only slightly vague now to appease the Chuka Umunna faction/west London and Bristol labour voters.

His reasons are twofold:
i) it prohibits state ownership, so it prevents the implementation of socialism
ii) the democratic deficit. Remember he is Tony Benn's protégé and Benn hated the EU because it's not accountable and you can't remove it

 

[Gutter Boy]

Conservatives- The vote was a manifesto pledge and has a bee in the party's bonnet since well .the 70's.
Far right - anti globalism and isolationism.

Very simplified answers - there are others far more articulate than me on here, that will explaine more fully.

The Tories were pro-EU in the 70s. It was Maastricht in the early 90s that split them. Labour are the traditional anti-EU party; until Blair anyway.

Anti-globalisation is more left than it is right.

It's more complex anyway

 

[parklane1]

I know plenty (Essex) who voted due to immigration - not necessarily race

Maybe, ( note i said maybe) that says more about some of the folks in Essex then the majority of those that voted out for other reasons?

 

[parklane1]

No your not a racist, you are however a stupid inbred knuckle dragging neanderthals who believed what a spiv wrote on the side of a bus about the NHS getting more money, at least that is what used to be said about leavers now I guess they have gone full circle and it is back at the racist thing.

As i said earlier i fear for some i really do, because if they keep saying/believing that most folks voted out on race issues then there have been no lessons learnt.

What's that old saying? " you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink".

 

[StephenH]

As i said earlier i fear for some i really do, because if they keep saying/believing that most folks voted out on race issues then there have been no lessons learnt.

What's that old saying? " you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink".

What do you think was the main reason for a out vote?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

What do you think was the main reason for a out vote?

Honestly I think the were lots of different reasons, though everyone that voted Leave voted to leave the EU so they knew what they were voting for.

The are some who dislike mass immigration, the are some that dislike the erosion of democracy, the are some who think with a world view and what to see Britain look beyond Europe(I am in the last category) Gutterboy had it best when he said we should turn into the South Korea of Europe and I think that is exactly what we should be looking and aiming for.

We should have the power to control immigration into our own country, but who is to say that will always be less, after world war 2 we had to ask common wealth countries if their people would come to the UK. Maybe in the future we will need to do the same, key thing with immigration like with everything else is we decide.

If the EU was a business it would be bust, it is unaccountable it can not control its own budgets, it is bloated and does not do what it was set up to do which was just to boast trade between nations.