• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics

It brings plenty to the discussion - I'm marking out the optimal position.

When balanced against an opinion I can't distinguish from "let's just give the EU everything they want" I think it's an important counterbalance.
You are stating opinion as fact and positioning it as a likely event - When reading most others they are talking about likely actions and outcomes or at least prefacing it as an opinion, you position "what you would do" as "what you think will be the outcome" and there is then discussion on something that is on no one in powers agenda.

for example:

"We conceded the point on the sequencing of negotiations on the first day, so that one has gone.

We shouldn't have done so - it doesn't mean we can't change our minds. We can tell the EU that they can have this closed now if they want but the only way to do so will be to accept no rights at all for any EU citizen. Or they can debate it with us later and get a result they're more likely to want"

how likely is this to happen, we have conceded this point it is very unlikely to change (unless you think otherwise) its a red herring and brings nothing to how we proceed, there are many other examples of this. I have a load of points of how negotiations should go but they will not as those doing the negotiations do not agree, rather than discussing a non-existing outcome surely there is more value in discussing how the actions of those making the decisions will play out.
 
You are stating opinion as fact and positioning it as a likely event - When reading most others they are talking about likely actions and outcomes or at least prefacing it as an opinion, you position "what you would do" as "what you think will be the outcome" and there is then discussion on something that is on no one in powers agenda.

for example:

"We conceded the point on the sequencing of negotiations on the first day, so that one has gone.

We shouldn't have done so - it doesn't mean we can't change our minds. We can tell the EU that they can have this closed now if they want but the only way to do so will be to accept no rights at all for any EU citizen. Or they can debate it with us later and get a result they're more likely to want"

how likely is this to happen, we have conceded this point it is very unlikely to change (unless you think otherwise) its a red herring and brings nothing to how we proceed, there are many other examples of this. I have a load of points of how negotiations should go but they will not as those doing the negotiations do not agree, rather than discussing a non-existing outcome surely there is more value in discussing how the actions of those making the decisions will play out.
It's precisely what a competent person with our nation's best interests in mind would do.

I'm pointing out that those painting our situation as hopeless are wrong. There's plenty of scope for movement, even in the negotiations we've already been through. I don't think our current government is likely to slash taxes/regulation and kill the snooper's charter but that doesn't stop me saying that's what they should be doing.
 
It's precisely what a competent person with out nation's best interests in mind would do.

I'm pointing out that those painting our situation as hopeless are wrong. There's plenty of scope for movement, even in the negotiations we've already been through. I don't think our current government is likely to slash taxes/regulation and kill the snooper's charter but that doesn't stop me saying that's what they should be doing.

"It's precisely what a competent person with out nation's best interests in mind would do." - see this is the point you present it as a fact (there are many other options) and what will happen - neither of these are true and the discussion then moves on to why your solution wont work even though its extremely unlikely to even come to fruition, it then goes down a cul-de-sac of arguing against a policy that no one is presenting. You are not disagreeing with policy and others opinions but saying that an alternative will happen when quite clearly there is little chance of those who are making the decisions following this path. Its a red herring.
 
"It's precisely what a competent person with out nation's best interests in mind would do." - see this is the point you present it as a fact (there are many other options) and what will happen - neither of these are true and the discussion then moves on to why your solution wont work even though its extremely unlikely to even come to fruition, it then goes down a cul-de-sac of arguing against a policy that no one is presenting. You are not disagreeing with policy and others opinions but saying that an alternative will happen when quite clearly there is little chance of those who are making the decisions following this path. Its a red herring.
I've not once said it will happen, merely that it can (and should).

It's a direct counterpoint to the doom and gloom view of the UK being the hopeless drowning nation having to do the bidding of the all-powerful EU.

I'm not predicting an outcome, I'm just disputing that our position is hopeless and that we have no alternative but to accept EU diktats.

It's also important to consider this when evaluating Brexit as a whole. There's a huge difference between Brexit = bad result and our negotiators leaving something at the table.
 
Last edited:
Any thoughts on the Great Repeal Bill?

Starmer's six demands are a bit mixed.

The Henry VIII powers and balance between repatriation of powers to Westminster vs Edinburgh/Cardiff/Belfast/York (we need an English parliament) are sensible

Some like the incorporation of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights are a bit bizarre - we already opt out of that as a member and it has freedom of movement and right to vote in the European Parliament elections as core parts of it, which are clearly incompatible

Ensuring workers' rights in the UK do not fall behind those in the EU isn't helpful either. The whole point of Brexit is to regain sovereignty, to have freedom to take a different path in future. Transferring current rights is fine, but theoretically Starmer would be agreeing to e.g. in 10 years' time Brussels insists on something like 2 years compulsory full-pay paternity leave, we'd have to be bound to that.

It's all about show though - Corbyn and McDonnell will undermine him again when it comes to voting anyway.
 
DEnULVrW0AECw6J.jpg


DEnUMYzXsAE4X03.jpg
 
Brexit has been truly comedic from the campaign to the current day it like an episode, nay series of the my all time favourite 'The thick of it'.
If Boris is not leader of the Conservatives by 2019 I will not like the ending.
Jesse and Bojo will be a great double act like Baldrick and Blackadder.
perfection that Brian Rix would have enjoyed!
 
Any thoughts on the Great Repeal Bill?

It has no chance of getting through parliament without serious amendments.

And this is the first of seven major Brexit bills that the government needs to pass. They could save themselves a lot of time and seek consensus, rather than try and plough on pretending that the election didn't happen.
 
It has no chance of getting through parliament without serious amendments.

And this is the first of seven major Brexit bills that the government needs to pass. They could save themselves a lot of time and seek consensus, rather than try and plough on pretending that the election didn't happen.

There is a pretty big consensus between the Tories and Labour. Starmer is just tinkering round the edges, and their MPs will be whipped into voting for it irrespective of if there are any token concessions, same as Article 50.

And no Tory/DUP, other than Ken Clarke, will rebel against it anyway, as the consequence will so clearly be a Corbyn government. Soubry and Morgan etc. are far too aware of that to cause problems.
 
There is a pretty big consensus between the Tories and Labour. Starmer is just tinkering round the edges, and their MPs will be whipped into voting for it irrespective of if there are any token concessions, same as Article 50.

And no Tory/DUP, other than Ken Clarke, will rebel against it anyway, as the consequence will so clearly be a Corbyn government. Soubry and Morgan etc. are far too aware of that to cause problems.

The consensus in the house is toward no or soft Brexit. The leadership of the main parties have whipped their MPs into supporting hard Brexit so far but that hasn't been properly tested since the election (Tory MPs were never going to vote against the Queen's Speech).

Labour's position has clarified slightly since the election and it is notable that both Corbyn and McDonnell have stuck to the official line in major interviews this week. Labour's position is still trying to be all things to all people but they have found a consistent line which they can oppose this from.

I think that it will never get to a vote in its current form. The Tory whips strategy for having no majority appears to be, don't lose any votes. If it looks like they could lose, it will be changed before it comes before the chamber.
 
There's far too much politics in this country and not enough governance. They just need to give it a rest and get their heads down till June 2019

It's quite clear that several members of the Cabinet are on manoeuvres. Boris always is but it looks bad for May is Davies is too.

Davies' window to be PM is narrow, his reputation will be trashed by the negotiations. Many more stories like the NAO one this week and he won't stand a chance. He probably needs May to stand down before Conference if he is to be in with a chance.
 
It's quite clear that several members of the Cabinet are on manoeuvres. Boris always is but it looks bad for May is Davies is too.

Davies' window to be PM is narrow, his reputation will be trashed by the negotiations. Many more stories like the NAO one this week and he won't stand a chance. He probably needs May to stand down before Conference if he is to be in with a chance.

@Gutter Boy

 
Any thoughts on the Great Repeal Bill?

Starmer's six demands are a bit mixed.

The Henry VIII powers and balance between repatriation of powers to Westminster vs Edinburgh/Cardiff/Belfast/York (we need an English parliament) are sensible

Some like the incorporation of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights are a bit bizarre - we already opt out of that as a member and it has freedom of movement and right to vote in the European Parliament elections as core parts of it, which are clearly incompatible

Ensuring workers' rights in the UK do not fall behind those in the EU isn't helpful either. The whole point of Brexit is to regain sovereignty, to have freedom to take a different path in future. Transferring current rights is fine, but theoretically Starmer would be agreeing to e.g. in 10 years' time Brussels insists on something like 2 years compulsory full-pay paternity leave, we'd have to be bound to that.

It's all about show though - Corbyn and McDonnell will undermine him again when it comes to voting anyway.
It has no chance of getting through parliament without serious amendments.

And this is the first of seven major Brexit bills that the government needs to pass. They could save themselves a lot of time and seek consensus, rather than try and plough on pretending that the election didn't happen.

Best way to derail Brexit as a viable negotiation - make it run out of time and push Europe for a few bits that suit Toryism (in the knowledge you will achieve 40-60%)
Phase one - prolong the process in UK parliament and try and frame the opposite as anti-Brexit and as if they are the actual time wasters
 
Best way to derail Brexit as a viable negotiation - make it run out of time and push Europe for a few bits that suit Toryism (in the knowledge you will achieve 40-60%)
Phase one - prolong the process in UK parliament and try and frame the opposite as anti-Brexit and as if they are the actual time wasters

It would be impossible to do a better job of derailing Brexit than the government is currently doing.
 
Last edited:
Back