Politics, politics, politics

[parklane1]

Do you not see the difference between the last Labour Government and the current Tory one with regards to services? if so do you prefer one over the other, I certainly do and this is enough to get me to vote, I do not have to agree with everything being offered.

I know this was not directed at me as a question and i can not answer for GB. However i really do not see much difference between either party ( and have not since Blair got up his own arse as a closet tory). I am not the only person in the country who feels that ALL politicions ( or mostly all) are insincere and no more then sound bites and much of a muchness. I really do believe that the Brexit vote was partly driven by the major partys not doing enough for the average man in the street and that the general population were sick to death of gutless partys not caring about the majority of regular folks.

So i get where GB is /was coming from.

 

[SpurMeUp]

For me it's about choice

Choice to be socialist, choice to be neo-liberal, choice to be progressive, choice to be isolationist.

What's important about Westminster being sovereign is that when they aren't doing a good job, we can kick them out and try something different.

I've never voted in an election before (despite being eligible since the late 90s and having a politics degree), because I viewed all options as emasculated. Maastricht had made voting pointless - we were stuck in faceless unaccountable technocrat hell. The EU referendum was the first time I've ever been to a polling station, because I felt there was something at stake, a once in a lifetime chance to reclaim power for the common people.

All sorts of contradictions here, based on slightly irrational 'other' fears, with respect. Not sure what Technocrat hell is, sounds good though! Could pop it on the side of a bus. Is has little to with reality, much to do with the representation of Europe by a press that needs something interesting to write about.

I would agree with you about the pointlessness of voting however. In which case, what is the problem with the EU doing all the dull bureaucratic work on trade agreements etc? One can vote in European elections if you care, and many of the faceless technocrats come from the UK.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'll be honest. I read through this thread, stuff about 'markets', 'free movement', 'economics' etc blah blah blah. It's all a load of cobblers really. The fact that we are tied to all this as a global community stinks. Shame on us.

Was the Silk Road also gonads? Pretty much all of our technologies came from somewhere else and are made (cheaper) somewhere. Global trade per say doesn't stink, those who exploit and give nothing back...maybe.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Funny I noted you didn't manage to get back to my response to your post, think it was message #6399 on page 320

Can I ask, what Sovereignty do you notice you are missing now because of the EU? And what do you expect to see different, once we leave? What Sovereignty will you then experience and how will that impact on your life or others around you?

Sorry i did see your previous post and have been meant to reply, but keep getting sidetracked.
Sovereignty is when the buck for most decisions on the actions of a state to do with running the Economy, making decisions on how the Government spends taxes raised, redistributes any wealth, invests for its future, makes laws etc stops with the Prime Minister (and his/her party) of the given tme. I experience this every time when i make a decision on which party i vote for (which depends on the manifestos produced by said parties every 4/5 years) every general (and perhaps local) election. I vote for who i believe would be best for me and my family in my local area and for me and family nationwide.

It is called democracy: if i don't like the current political party in power, i get the chance to vote them out in favour of another one who has policies i prefer and hope others will join me and cast a similar vote. You know that thing, democracy. It's not full-proof by any means, but the further away from a natin decisions are taken the less i feel i can make a vote to try and reverse it (please don't tell me the MEP system has any effect on whether the policy to introduce a congestion charge zone in London can be voted for/against in priority of some other transport project being mooted in say Florence).

I will now go back and answer your previous post..

I think your first point nails the rational for Remain: most people who can judge believe that staying prosperous and steady means keeping trade with our closest neighbours. In essence it is that simple. How do you rationally judge this not to be prudent?

An in-built assumption here: we are prosperous ONLY because we trade with our closest neighbours. Brexit is not saying we don't want to trade with our closest neighbours but that we want to not be tied to the same bureaucratic rules and regulations of the EU. For many a short-term Economic downturn/blip due to the shockwaves caused by Brexit is worth it in the long run if we keep some decisions on law, immigration etc in-house. Also it's not a given that the EU trading zone is itself futureproofed from Economic downturns themselves. If/when that happens the UK may be in a better position to insulate itself.

Re. your second point. With all due respect...bolocks! No one voted to stop trade with Europe. Few cared about trade deals, and those that did would have seen, as you do now, that the negatives around EU trade are likely outweighed by their positives. Personally I believe in lean governance. It simply doesn't make sense for the UK to have 30,000 extra civil servants dealing with all the required legal and trade bureaucracy that we will have to do inhouse. It's dull stuff, amply handled by a consortium of people in Brussels (many of whom are from the UK). And that's not even going into the benefits of negotiating trade deals with the weight of 550m odd consumers behind you, rather than 50m.

As i said earlier, people voted for Brexit for a kaleidoscope of reasons but as i say if reduced trade with the EU is a cost of having our Government not being able to pass the buck for a decision it takes and blaming the EU, then many Brexiters are happy to accept it. The Brexit vote wasn't just based on next year's trading figures but on the ability to have our elected Government have full responsibility for decisions over the next decade or so.

All credit to you for your rational well reasoned arguments. FWIW I do believe the media is completely biased and pro Remain, that things are not as black or white on these issues as many would maintain in the media, and there are some benefits to the UK being more agile (but these are more than outweighed by the losses to the UK imo).

I agree that many things are not black and white and those who bemoan Brexit would do well to remember that as well: imo it's not a given that the downsides outweigh the benefits. And the media is not completely biased and pro Remain. As you know there are some pro-Brexit and some who are in te middle but wary of the upcoming uncertainties.

To your third point, you recognise that the EU is a customs union. To trade effectively we have free movement. The IF part, your fear I presume, that the EU won't remain just a customs union...well we have a veto on greater integration, as do other democratic countries many of whom are also Euro-sceptic, so why do you think the EU would become federal and not remain just a customs union? Its not rational imo.

As i've said and shown many times in this thread several of the EU bigwigs want a Political Union as well as a Economic and Customs Union. They themselves have said that the customs unions is a work in progress towards a Political Union!

I'm old enough to read a history book. To know that the EU was born out of a continent in ashes coming together to ensure that national sovereignty of EU nations is never again overrun by a Nazi like movement. And it succeeded with peace and prosperity since. Any conflicts have been quickly resolved often mediated by having a union. And you want to give this up?

Yes. It's a myth that we haven't gone to war only because of the EU. We haven't gone to war because we have not needed to do so (within Western Europe anyway) and because the USA stationed troops in Germany stopping them becoming a large army again so if a nutjob even came to power there he/she wouldn't be able to be militarily active anyway. In any case Germany has been busy building a vibrant Economy it has no time to do war games in any case. If we had a border with Russia would we be saying the same thing since WW2?

While articulate and well reasoned, I don't think these arguments stack up. And the UK is to risk it all on some 'maybe's' which will incur generations of extra governance, admin and upheaval...for what exactly? What do we get back from this?

Decisions being taken by ourselves and for what we believe is best for us. Most importantly, decisions that are more challengable by our electorate.

I just don't see it happening. Because there is no coherent plan to make it happen, because there is no rational option that works for us as well as the EU. The best politicians can do is to save face, possibly deliver some controls on immigration in return for a slightly withdrawn UK. Anything else and you end up with the UK observing the EU laws anyway, but not having any control (ie less sovereignty than now!), or us losing out on EU trade that we may possibly make up somewhere else, though why we aren't accessing this other ex-EU trade now no one can explain.
Face it, Breadstick, Brisket, EU exit, is not in the UKs interests. No one knows how it can be realised to the UKs benefit or has a reasoned rational for doing it. It's the biggest farce of our time.

Brexit is will for a scenario whereby the UK Government making decisions itself that it believes benefits us. They may decide to pay to have access to the European market but then also decide they can set their own immigration policies including projections of numbers and profile of immigrants over time. In time there may come a time that they believe it is not worth paying to have such access and may 'switch it off'. This will be a decision that they take based on the circumstances at the time. Most importantly it will be their decision. Just because we have been used to 40 years of not having responsibility for certain bureaucracies in this regard does NOT mean that a coherent plan cannot be found. An even if a coherent plan was written and sent to everybody's door tomorrow many will still say it's not good.
I'm ok with the balance of responsibility for decision making shifting back to the UK Government: we have issues of democratic deficits here already without taking on more with the EU which is heading slowly but surely into ever more Political Union and where it's top brass are busy trying to make an EU where its institutions have the last word over member states.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Sorry i did see your previous post and have been meant to reply, but keep getting sidetracked.
Sovereignty is when the buck for most decisions on the actions of a state to do with running the Economy, making decisions on how the Government spends taxes raised, redistributes any wealth, invests for its future, makes laws etc stops with the Prime Minister (and his/her party) of the given tme. I experience this every time when i make a decision on which party i vote for (which depends on the manifestos produced by said parties every 4/5 years) every general (and perhaps local) election. I vote for who i believe would be best for me and my family in my local area and for me and family nationwide.

It is called democracy: if i don't like the current political party in power, i get the chance to vote them out in favour of another one who has policies i prefer and hope others will join me and cast a similar vote. You know that thing, democracy. It's not full-proof by any means, but the further away from a natin decisions are taken the less i feel i can make a vote to try and reverse it (please don't tell me the MEP system has any effect on whether the policy to introduce a congestion charge zone in London can be voted for/against in priority of some other transport project being mooted in say Florence).

So Sovereignty for you is no different to Democracy? Having an ability to vote for UK politicians. Post Brexit things will sure be different for you. What happens now that you don't feel you are able to vote for? The most democratic country is Switzerland. They vote on everything. You'd like it there. Sometimes it goes awry with crazy laws past like no lawn mowing on a Sunday, or voting to throw immigrants out the local town. Here are some other wondrous laws from the most democratic country in the world:


2. Parents must not give their child a name that might damage the child’s interests, as Swiss musician Christine Lauterburg knows only too well. The authorities banned her from naming her daughter Lexicon.

3. ‘Social species’ such as guinea pigs, goldfish and budgerigars must be kept in pairs or have contact with others of their own kind. Switzerland’s advanced animal rights laws see isolation as abuse, and we think that deserves applause.

4. Some places are not so animal friendly, though. In 2011 officials in tiny village Reconvilier dredged up a bylaw from 1904 that would allow them to kill pet dogs if owners did not pay their dog tax.

5. Yes, you have to pay a tax on your dog. The annual fee is determined by the dog’s size and weight.

6. On Sundays you must not hang your washing out to dry …

7. … or mow your lawn …

8. … or recycle. Last year German native Judith Schulte got on the wrong side of Zurich’s authorities when she dared to drop off her recycling on the wrong day. She was offered the choice between a fine and two nights in jail.

9. In some cantons it is forbidden for men to have a wee standing up after 10pm. The reasoning? It creates too much noise.

10. And our favourite: In 2009 Canton Appenzell banned hiking in the nude following an influx of ‘naked tourists’ from Germany. Two years later a man caught wandering naked past a picnic site was fined CHF 100.

http://www.timeout.com/switzerland/blog/ten-of-the-wackiest-swiss-laws

Since Sovereignty is Democracy in your eyes and Sovereignty is good, would you be in favour of more of it? More votes on UK things - would that make you feel more Sovereign? There is massive potential for electronic voting, could that heighten UK Sovereignty? What happens when you get a feeling of Sovereignty? I imagine a queasy sense of nationalistic self pride. Am I clutching at straws..?

 

[glorygloryeze]

So Sovereignty for you is no different to Democracy? Having an ability to vote for UK politicians. Post Brexit things will sure be different for you. What happens now that you don't feel you are able to vote for? The most democratic country is Switzerland. They vote on everything. You'd like it there. Sometimes it goes awry with crazy laws past like no lawn mowing on a Sunday, or voting to throw immigrants out the local town. Here are some other wondrous laws from the most democratic country in the world:


2. Parents must not give their child a name that might damage the child’s interests, as Swiss musician Christine Lauterburg knows only too well. The authorities banned her from naming her daughter Lexicon.

3. ‘Social species’ such as guinea pigs, goldfish and budgerigars must be kept in pairs or have contact with others of their own kind. Switzerland’s advanced animal rights laws see isolation as abuse, and we think that deserves applause.

4. Some places are not so animal friendly, though. In 2011 officials in tiny village Reconvilier dredged up a bylaw from 1904 that would allow them to kill pet dogs if owners did not pay their dog tax.

5. Yes, you have to pay a tax on your dog. The annual fee is determined by the dog’s size and weight.

6. On Sundays you must not hang your washing out to dry …

7. … or mow your lawn …

8. … or recycle. Last year German native Judith Schulte got on the wrong side of Zurich’s authorities when she dared to drop off her recycling on the wrong day. She was offered the choice between a fine and two nights in jail.

9. In some cantons it is forbidden for men to have a wee standing up after 10pm. The reasoning? It creates too much noise.

10. And our favourite: In 2009 Canton Appenzell banned hiking in the nude following an influx of ‘naked tourists’ from Germany. Two years later a man caught wandering naked past a picnic site was fined CHF 100.

http://www.timeout.com/switzerland/blog/ten-of-the-wackiest-swiss-laws

Since Sovereignty is Democracy in your eyes and Sovereignty is good, would you be in favour of more of it? More votes on UK things - would that make you feel more Sovereign? There is massive potential for electronic voting, could that heighten UK Sovereignty? What happens when you get a feeling of Sovereignty? I imagine a queasy sense of nationalistic self pride. Am clutching at straws..?

Yes, you are clutching at straws! National pride i am not bothered about (i'm from an immigrant family myself btw) but responsibility for actions taken in the UK being in the hands of politicians i elect (or institutions that i can lobby or get my MP to lobby etc) i am bothered about.

If Swiss nationals really don't like those laws they can lobby and push for them to eventually be gotten rid of (if enough support for such moves can be put in motion). Much harder to do similar in the EU when it becomes the Political Union the EU bigwigs openly desire.

Edited - to remove last line, which wasn't needed...

 

[SpurMeUp]

@glorygloryeze I admire your principles and belief in Democracy. It may sound condescending, but you don't think you might be let down by Brexit? Or that true democracy results in things like people voting to ship immigrants out the country (it had to be overruled in Switzerland when it happened). You don't think that Brexit and UK control is little different to what we have today? The only noticeable difference might be we're poorer as a nation.

If we pay to play with the EU, like Switzerland again, we'll also have to accept some trade related laws, and free movement. At the moment we can partake in forming those laws, whereas post UK exit they just get emailed to our government to implement.

I still don't see what in practical terms will be different in your life with the UK outside the Union. Or where the worth is to us, apart from some misty eyed feeling of Sovereignty, which is actually Democracy...? Forgive me for being confused as to why we continue wasting our governments efforts on this Emperors News Clothes lunacy.

 

[glorygloryeze]

@glorygloryeze I admire your principles and belief in Democracy. It may sound condescending, but you don't think you might be let down by Brexit? Or that true democracy results in things like people voting to ship immigrants out the country (it had to be overruled in Switzerland when it happened). You don't think that Brexit and UK control is little different to what we have today? The only noticeable different might be we're poorer as a nation.

If we pay to play with the EU, like Switzerland again, we'll also have to accept some trade related laws, and free movement. At the moment we can partake in forming those laws, whereas post UK exit they just get emailed to our government to implement.

I still don't see what in practical terms will be different in your life with the UK outside the Union. Or where the worth is to us, apart from some misty eyed feeling of Sovereignty, which is actually Democracy...? Forgive me for being confused as to why we continue wasting our governments efforts on this Emperors News Clothes lunacy.

To be honest i know that Democracy as we see it today has a lot of imperfections (for example we have a Monarchy and unelected chambers!); i also recognise that there is a lot of much of a muchness in terms of choices of Political Parties in the UK at the moment (though i think the Brexit vote has shaken things up nicely imo in the UK and beyond, which i think is a good thing as long as it doesn't lead to anarchy).

The EU is working towards a Political Union which will be inherently bad for Citizens imo as it a) unworkable unless through dictatorship/tyranny b) it would make us poorer overall as how do you economically manage such a large area with vast differences in history, culture and priorities.

The Brexit vote is not about what happens today or necessarily tomorrow but about the process of responsibility for how the decisions the country takes in years to come. I am not sitting here expecting everything to change overnight, much as i'm also not expecting our Economy to go bust overnight (especially in comparison to the EU zone) simply because of the Brexit vote.
I'm prepared to wait and see how things pan out but most importantly i am happy that whatever happens it will be the responsibility of the UK Government to steer the country.

 

[SpurMeUp]

To be honest i know that Democracy as we see it today has a lot of imperfections (for example we have a Monarchy and unelected chambers!); i also recognise that there is a lot of much of a muchness in terms of choices of Political Parties in the UK at the moment (though i think the Brexit vote has shaken things up nicely imo in the UK and beyond, which i think is a good thing as long as it doesn't lead to anarchy).

The EU is working towards a Political Union which will be inherently bad for Citizens imo as it a) unworkable unless through dictatorship/tyranny b) it would make us poorer overall as how do you economically manage such a large area with vast differences in history, culture and priorities.

The Brexit vote is not about what happens today or necessarily tomorrow but about the process of responsibility for how the decisions the country takes in years to come. I am not sitting here expecting everything to change overnight, much as i'm also not expecting our Economy to go bust overnight (especially in comparison to the EU zone) simply because of the Brexit vote.
I'm prepared to wait and see how things pan out but most importantly i am happy that whatever happens it will be the responsibility of the UK Government to steer the country.

1. Brexit promised to shake up politics. Sadly it won't because it lacks meaningful content. Brexit is a negative anti-them vote, based on emotional fears of the outside. It may have been a protest vote, but there is nothing fresh to Brexit.

2. The answer to your question re. political union. You can't. Its impossible. You answered your own question. Its not viable. It will never happen.

3. Bit of a shot in the dark then. I'm not sure you appreciate how little the EU actually control our government. What is it that will change? What liberation will the government have to steer the country? You ignore the fact that we may have less control on EU laws not more.

This is the biggest waste of tax payers money and government energy since wwii. Put the energy into fixing schools, controling non-EU migration, improving the NHS. Total waste of time.

 

[glorygloryeze]

1. Brexit promised to shake up politics. Sadly it won't because it lacks meaningful content. Brexit is a negative anti-them vote, based on emotional fears of the outside. It may have been a protest vote, but there is nothing fresh to Brexit.

2. The answer to your question re. political union. You can't. Its impossible. You answered your own question. Its not viable. It will never happen.

3. Bit of a shot in the dark then. I'm not sure you appreciate how little the EU actually control our government. What is it that will change? What liberation will the government have to steer the country? You ignore the fact that we may have less control on EU laws not more.

This is the biggest waste of tax payers money and government energy since wwii. Put the energy into fixing schools, controling non-EU migration, improving the NHS. Total waste of time.

1. Of course this has shaken up Politics! Nobody expected the outcome at all! Politicians involved in the EU now cannot take anything for granted as what they thought could never happen (in terms of the vote) actually happened. I think along with the Trump win in the USA Brexit has now made Politicians of all colours sit up and realise that you cannot take for granted that the usual arguments that are used will win the votes. It is fresh in that sense (also a little disorientating understandably for all though).

2. You and i believe Political Union wouldn't be viable; i believe it wouldn't be viable UNLESS vis a dictatorship. Yet, the higher-ups within the EU keep brining it up as someting that they desire and/or wish to work towards: i think that says all you need to know about where their minds are at..

3. As much as a shot in the dark as ANY vote or as decision a country makes. i want to at least keep the status quo in terms of decision making and control for the UK Government. As i say many EU bigwigs want the EU institutions to have the last word over member states and Brexit is to at least make a good attempt to avoid. If we are outside the EU and its surge towards Political Union 'having less control of EU laws' is good as far as i'm concerned.

Brexit may be a waste of money in many ways but if it's the price to pay to leave the EU and the juggernaut for ever closer union that i'm happy to do it.
Once it all settles down yes i think we can turn our attention to schools and the like: as a Government should do. But we have to do the pain first imo
Not a waste of time at all for me.

 

[StephenH]

Brexit may be a waste of money

Ya think!

Has the feel of the Sissoko deal

 

[Gutter Boy]

1. Brexit promised to shake up politics. Sadly it won't because it lacks meaningful content. Brexit is a negative anti-them vote, based on emotional fears of the outside. It may have been a protest vote, but there is nothing fresh to Brexit.

That's not true. Practically all the leavers I came across were Liberal Leavers. People who wanted to become part of the world, rather than part of a protectionist region. I think Brexit was actually born out of self-confidence. Europe was our prop when we were exhausted after the war, but now we are strong again and ready to become a world player, while Europe is floundering. We can be more prosperous outside it, and have no emotional ties like Germany to hold us back.

Yes Brexiteers were a broad coalition, but anyone who thinks the majority were closed people has just been reading too much Polly Toynbee

 

[StephenH]

Brexit has the feel of those people who are loosing at a game of monopoly, so in temper they kick the board in the air.

Us Bemoaners are guilty of not taking the stupidity of some of the population seriously.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Brexit has the feel of those people who are loosing at a game of monopoly, so in temper they kick the board in the air.

Us Bemoaners are guilty of not taking the stupidity of some of the population seriously.

I would genuinely encourage you to go out and visit the shires or northern metropolitan areas and discover some of the hope and ambition that exists around Brexit away from the west London bubble.

 

[scaramanga]

That's not true. Practically all the leavers I came across were Liberal Leavers. People who wanted to become part of the world, rather than part of a protectionist region. I think Brexit was actually born out of self-confidence. Europe was our prop when we were exhausted after the war, but now we are strong again and ready to become a world player, while Europe is floundering. We can be more prosperous outside it, and have no emotional ties like Germany to hold us back.

Yes Brexiteers were a broad coalition, but anyone who thinks the majority were closed people has just been reading too much Polly Toynbee

Never, ever read Polly Toynbee. Not only is she a grade A fudgewit, but also possibly the world's biggest hypocrite.

Could be useful to read before a boxing match or something to get the anger pumping.

 

[StephenH]

I would genuinely encourage you to go out and visit the shires or northern metropolitan areas and discover some of the hope and ambition that exists around Brexit away from the west London bubble.

London bubble?

Its just common sense.
Brexit is and was always perfection. I quite like the sheer comedy of the it all.
The under 40's will know if it was worth it.
Many of the people on here won't live to see the true reality of leaving the EU.

 

[Grays_1890]

London bubble?

Its just common sense.
Brexit is and was always perfection. I quite like the sheer comedy of the it all.
The under 40's will know if it was worth it.
Many of the people on here won't live to see the true reality of leaving the EU.

In the whole history of the human race the UK has been in the EU for the last handful of years in comparison, we decide to leave and people see it as the end of the world as we know it. That's the laughable thing.

I don't look at Europe I look at the world and if you compare the world as a whole there are plenty of countries outside the EU that do very well for themselves and a number within the EU that do very badly for themselves.

 

[Gutter Boy]

London bubble?

Its just common sense.
Brexit is and was always perfection. I quite like the sheer comedy of the it all.
The under 40's will know if it was worth it.
Many of the people on here won't live to see the true reality of leaving the EU.

We joined a club 40 years ago

It became power hungry, tyrannous, ineffective and not what we signed up for.

We'll leave that club and re-orientate ourselves towards the other 85% of the world.

We'll have better government and be much more dynamic economically because of it

I genuinely believe we'll now see the same political, economic and cultural energising and progression that the Reformation stimulated

 

[Grays_1890]

We joined a club 40 years ago

It became power hungry, tyrannous, ineffective and not what we signed up for.

We'll leave that club and re-orientate ourselves towards the other 85% of the world.

We'll have better government and be much more dynamic economically because of it

I genuinely believe we'll now see the same political, economic and cultural energising and progression that the Reformation stimulated

Spot on, absolutely spot on.

 

[StephenH]

In the whole history of the human race the UK has been in the EU for the last handful of years in comparison, we decide to leave and people see it as the end of the world as we know it. That's the laughable thing.

I don't look at Europe I look at the world and if you compare the world as a whole there are plenty of countries outside the EU that do very well for themselves and a number within the EU that do very badly for themselves.

We joined a club 40 years ago

It became power hungry, tyrannous, ineffective and not what we signed up for.

We'll leave that club and re-orientate ourselves towards the other 85% of the world.

We'll have better government and be much more dynamic economically because of it

I genuinely believe we'll now see the same political, economic and cultural energising and progression that the Reformation stimulated

Brexit is going to improve thing?
You are prepared to spend billions we dont have 'hoping' things will change.
You are all deluded.
Dont take my word for it just watch the first couple acts of Brexit unfold! Unfortunately or maybe fortunately many of us won't be around for the closing act "When the brick really hit the fan"
We need a new series of The thick of it! It would be wonderful.........