Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Parklaner81]

To recap, Scara told us the EU stops the UK being competitive because of the working hours directive. It's obvious this is rubbish.

I think I'm correct in saying that where staff are happy to be bound by the directive, employers have no choice but to respect this. It's not difficult to imagine how this could lead to inefficiencies from the employers point of view.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think I'm correct in saying that where staff are happy to be bound by the directive, employers have no choice but to respect this. It's not difficult to imagine how this could lead to inefficiencies from the employers point of view.

If people wish to work more than 48 hours per week they have to simply put it in writing. There is no hassel, its the quickest thing to do. An email, or a 2 line piece of text and signature box. Working 9.6 hours a day 5 days a week is probably more than Scara's staff work now.

Are you suggesting you would like to live in a nation that gives people no say in whether they have to work more hours than this? How would that work? In France their national law stipualates a 35 hour week.

Are you genuinely suggesting this is a reason to vote Brexit? What would you suggest we have instead of the 48 hour week with an opt out should people agree to work longer hours?

I actually think it IS difficult to imagine how this law could lead to inefficiciencies, unless you are suggesting the UK has prison of war like work camps.

 

[Parklaner81]

If people wish to work more than 48 hours per week they have to simply put it in writing. There is no hassel, its the quickest thing to do. An email, or a 2 line piece of text and signature box. Working 9.6 hours a day 5 days a week is probably more than Scara's staff work now.

Are you suggesting you would like to live in a nation that gives people no say in whether they have to work more hours than this? How would that work? In France their national law stipualates a 35 hour week.

Are you genuinely suggesting this is a reason to vote Brexit? What would you suggest we have instead of the 48 hour week with an opt out should people agree to work longer hours?

I actually think it IS difficult to imagine how this law could lead to inefficiciencies, unless you are suggesting the UK has prison of war like work camps.

I'm not suggesting any of those things. Doesn't make the point invalid.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'm not suggesting any of those things. Doesn't make the point invalid.

So you'd conceed the EU doesn't acutually make us uncompetitive. Terrific. (You can only maintain the working time directive makes us uncompetitive, if the UK would put in place something aweful that foreces people to work extremely long hours post EU, and youi're not suggesting that, and it would never happen).

Is there anything that we can point to where there are good reasons to leave the EU? Something that is clear, which could help to justify this unholy mess our parliment is in?

 

[P.D.]

So you'd conceed the EU doesn't acutually make us uncompetitive. Terrific. (You can only maintain the working time directive makes us uncompetitive, if the UK would put in place something aweful that foreces people to work extremely long hours post EU, and youi're not suggesting that, and it would never happen).

Is there anything that we can point to where there are good reasons to leave the EU? Something that is clear, which could help to justify this unholy mess our parliment is in?

Plenty of people have pointed out things in this thread to be fair.

What I'd be interested in is the future case from the remain side, I don't believe the EU can't continue on the same path as it is with so much populism going on so how would you plan to reform it (assuming you agree it needs reform)?

 

[Baleforce]

I think Brexit has opened the eyes of many to the benefits of EU membership, at the time of voting I was heavily remain based on the obvious economic impact of leaving and because FoM offers so many more career opportunities for me and my family.

We’ve all read the stories of areas voting strongly for leave because the local electorate were not aware that the big employers and/or community support initiatives relied upon, or were financed by, EU markets and initiatives.

Had we actually Brexited yesterday we’d still be having a massive trade relationship with the EU, it surrounds us.

The mistake this country has made is to not fully embrace Europe, how many Brits would claim to be European? I’m sure I’m in a minority in doing so.

WWII was nearly 75 years ago, we’ve still not got over winning it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Plenty of people have pointed out things in this thread to be fair.

What I'd be interested in is the future case from the remain side, I don't believe the EU can't continue on the same path as it is with so much populism going on so how would you plan to reform it (assuming you agree it needs reform)?

Don't be shy. List them. List some of the areas that might lead to benifits for the UK.

The Remain side. We continue to have completely free trade with a continent. The Gravity model of economics - countries trade most with their neighbours - means this is essential. As we go forward the UK government puts in place schemes to increase our exports to the EU - BoJo on record for example saying there is potential to. And there is. We are a trading nation, and we could be selling more to europe. At the same time we make the most of the free trade agreements with the likes to Japan that the Eu has put in place to sell them more goods and services. We work with our neighbouring nations on a new saterlite system (most of which was being developed in the UK) to allow development of new GPS tech, to spy on Russia or whoever and be independent.

We can work with the more euro-sceptic nations to look again at free movement. Even at the moment Belgium kick out people who are not working - send them back. But there is potential as the continent from Hungry to Italy want somethign to change. It won't be a big change as the principle of free movement is good. But something to stop illegal immigration and put some checks on anyone moving country to claim benifits.

As climate change intensifies, the EU provides a global force to a. make improvments to emmissions in Europe, but b. crucially to put pressure on the likes of China, Turkey even the US to clean up too. Probably a million one other things but that's a decent start?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think Brexit has opened the eyes of many to the benefits of EU membership, at the time of voting I was heavily remain based on the obvious economic impact of leaving and because FoM offers so many more career opportunities for me and my family.

We’ve all read the stories of areas voting strongly for leave because the local electorate were not aware that the big employers and/or community support initiatives relied upon, or were financed by, EU markets and initiatives.

Had we actually Brexited yesterday we’d still be having a massive trade relationship with the EU, it surrounds us.

The mistake this country has made is to not fully embrace Europe, how many Brits would claim to be European? I’m sure I’m in a minority in doing so.

WWII was nearly 75 years ago, we’ve still not got over winning it.

I don't think we even need to "embrace" it. Just understand it. Utalise it. We could export more for example.

The problem has been that the EU is very dull. It's work is not interesting from a journalistic point of view. Trade deals, medical laws, food standards laws. It only becomes fun from a newspapers perspective if you make it into a pantomime villan. jonny forigner tellings us what to do with the shape of our bananas etc.

But yes we could/should take some pride in the EU. The Commission takes the best and brightest from all over Europe to work for the good of a continent. Instead we see it as some evil other. To work at the Commission you have to be super smart with A grades coming out your arsehole, with interns working for peanuts. And I guess we could take some pride in what the EU does. I can't think of any other similar collection of nations ever. It can't be easy to get so many countries to collaborate on trade and things like food standards. The only other things like it in history have been imposed by empires. In that sense the EU is impressive.

As the world has become smaller, as trade and money flows around the world, as things like the net or pollution don't respect national boundries, supranational institutions are needed to allow greater international collaboration. If the EU wasn't there, how would Europe address air pollution for example?

 

[P.D.]

Don't be shy. List them. List some of the areas that might lead to benifits for the UK.

The Remain side. We continue to have completely free trade with a continent. The Gravity model of economics - countries trade most with their neighbours - means this is essential. As we go forward the UK government puts in place schemes to increase our exports to the EU - BoJo on record for example saying there is potential to. And there is. We are a trading nation, and we could be selling more to europe. At the same time we make the most of the free trade agreements with the likes to Japan that the Eu has put in place to sell them more goods and services. We work with our neighbouring nations on a new saterlite system (most of which was being developed in the UK) to allow development of new GPS tech, to spy on Russia or whoever and be independent.

We can work with the more euro-sceptic nations to look again at free movement. Even at the moment Belgium kick out people who are not working - send them back. But there is potential as the continent from Hungry to Italy want somethign to change. It won't be a big change as the principle of free movement is good. But something to stop illegal immigration and put some checks on anyone moving country to claim benifits.

As climate change intensifies, the EU provides a global force to a. make improvments to emmissions in Europe, but b. crucially to put pressure on the likes of China, Turkey even the US to clean up too. Probably a million one other things but that's a decent start?

Trading isn't reforming the EU though. So your reform would amount to looking at freedom of movement basically? How is creating a force to look at global emissions reforming the EU?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Trading isn't reforming the EU though. So your reform would amount to looking at freedom of movement basically? How is creating a force to look at global emissions reforming the EU?

To be honest, I think your premise is wrong. Popularism = a need to reform the EU. How did you make that jump? The EU doesn't run nations. Nations run nations. The EU just works on trade, standards etc. But lets run with it... What is it you think, or popularism indicates, should be reformed in the EU?

 

[P.D.]

To be honest, I think your premise is wrong. Popularism = a need to reform the EU. How did you make that jump? The EU doesn't run nations. Nations run nations. The EU just works on trade, standards etc. But lets run with it... What is it you think, or popularism indicates, should be reformed in the EU?

I think popularism is likely based on general globalisation and inequality which the EU certainly plays a part in alongside governments and corporations.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think popularism is likely based on general globalisation and inequality which the EU certainly plays a part in alongside governments and corporations.

How?

 

[glasgowspur]

I think Brexit has opened the eyes of many to the benefits of EU membership, at the time of voting I was heavily remain based on the obvious economic impact of leaving and because FoM offers so many more career opportunities for me and my family.

We’ve all read the stories of areas voting strongly for leave because the local electorate were not aware that the big employers and/or community support initiatives relied upon, or were financed by, EU markets and initiatives.

Had we actually Brexited yesterday we’d still be having a massive trade relationship with the EU, it surrounds us.

The mistake this country has made is to not fully embrace Europe, how many Brits would claim to be European? I’m sure I’m in a minority in doing so.

WWII was nearly 75 years ago, we’ve still not got over winning it.

Actually an argument could be made for the French not getting over us winning it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Actually an argument could be made for the French not getting over us winning it.

Russia and America might have something to say about that.

 

[Baleforce]

Actually an argument could be made for the French not getting over us winning it.

Proceed...

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think we even need to "embrace" it. Just understand it. Utalise it. We could export more for example.

The problem has been that the EU is very dull. It's work is not interesting from a journalistic point of view. Trade deals, medical laws, food standards laws. It only becomes fun from a newspapers perspective if you make it into a pantomime villan. jonny forigner tellings us what to do with the shape of our bananas etc.

But yes we could/should take some pride in the EU. The Commission takes the best and brightest from all over Europe to work for the good of a continent. Instead we see it as some evil other. To work at the Commission you have to be super smart with A grades coming out your ********, with interns working for peanuts. And I guess we could take some pride in what the EU does. I can't think of any other similar collection of nations ever. It can't be easy to get so many countries to collaborate on trade and things like food standards. The only other things like it in history have been imposed by empires. In that sense the EU is impressive.

As the world has become smaller, as trade and money flows around the world, as things like the net or pollution don't respect national boundries, supranational institutions are needed to allow greater international collaboration. If the EU wasn't there, how would Europe address air pollution for example?

I think embrace is the right word, let’s stop thinking of them being “jonny forigner” (original spelling kept ), we are all Europeans, EU membership or otherwise.

As you rightly say the world is only going to get smaller, we have challenges which we need to face together, a them and us dynamic will only negate the effectiveness.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think embrace is the right word, let’s stop thinking of them being “jonny forigner” (original spelling kept ), we are all Europeans, EU membership or otherwise.

As you rightly say the world is only going to get smaller, we have challenges which we need to face together, a them and us dynamic will only negate the effectiveness.

I’d settle for understand [emoji28]

Personally I don’t ‘embrace’ the EU. Who’s ever voted in an EU election? Not I. The EU tends to get on with its work in the background. We need not notice it. We can focus on the clams in our government if we wish to! We can consider ourselves British and not European - and that’s okay. No need to embrace the EU, just understand that it compliments our own government bureaucracy providing a load of boring stuff to facilitate trade, higher standards and legal international cooperation. I don’t need to embrace it to appreciate it working for me/us.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Baleforce]

I’d settle for understand [emoji28]

Personally I don’t ‘embrace’ the EU. Who’s ever voted in an EU election? Not I. The EU tends to get on with its work in the background. We need not notice it. We can focus on the clams in our government if we wish to! We can consider ourselves British and not European - and that’s okay. No need to embrace the EU, just understand that it compliments our own government bureaucracy providing a load of boring stuff to facilitate trade, higher standards and legal international cooperation. I don’t need to embrace it to appreciate it working for me/us.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

For the avoidance of doubt, it’s Europe, and being European I think we should embrace, rather than the EU specifically.

I have voted in European elections and hope to do so again.

 

[SpurMeUp]

For the avoidance of doubt, it’s Europe, and being European I think we should embrace, rather than the EU specifically.

I have voted in European elections and hope to do so again.

Fair enough. As an island nation we’ve always been a little separate from ‘those lot’. Italy etc mainland countries would never leave the EU because people literally drive in and out of neighbouring nations all the time. A train or ferry stop us from being so physically integrated as mainland nations. But Scandinavian nations are similar to us - a little separated from mainland Europe. And all the mainland nations retain a fierce sense of nationhood. They are French, German first etc.

I would vote in EU elections to keep out Farage. How has he made a career out of sneering at people? A failed businessman he now makes 400k a year being mr brexbrick, of course he wants it to continue. He’s nothing without the EU. Thar he’s also being paid 100k+ to swan along to Strasbourg drink some nice wine and put down people who are trying to work for us rubs it in further. Did he get bullied at school or something?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[P.D.]

How?

Well having a free market doesn't have to but generally leads to inequality and the EU with the 4 freedoms is fairly neo liberal. Inequality helps foster populism because people become frustrated with the current way of how things operate and start to demand change hence criticism of the EU, governments and corporations.