Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Danishfurniturelover]

This conversation started with the suggestion that the RNLI should not be doing what they're doing.

They're are dealing with a situation that is presented to them. There are lives at risk, their job is to save lives, they do their job. Their involvement ends there. All other issues, whether knock on or existing, should be dealt with by politicians, border forces or police.

Besides you are trying to create a chicken and egg scenario. If the RNLI don't get involved for the sake of discouraging further crossings, life's will be lost, guaranteed. Is that ok? Or is it best to deal with the live and present situation, save lives now, there maybe too many to save further down the line if crossings increase BUT that's a 'maybe', not guaranteed.

Why would anyone push back against the RNLI saving people? (Beyond some extended reasoning gonad*s)

Going into French waters is clearly going further then they need to. It is what I have said, I stick by that. It is clear to see how that and the negligence of the French is making a situation worse and putting more lives at risk.

Next thing they will be telling fishermen to go out in storms.

As ever it seems all sensible level headed discussions around asylum seekers or immigration get shut down and people retreat to their political side rather then discussing the humanitarian side of it.

I sat out the last general election and voted Labour in the local elections but it is easy to see why some are still voting for the Conservatives. It is very sad that some things that should be seen in very simple black and white and people try and turn it into a political issue.

I hope a load of poor people don't wash up on a beach dead some day. But I do wonder whether some in this thread would care about them or would actually relish it.

 

[AuroRaman]

Going into French waters is clearly going further then they need to. It is what I have said, I stick by that. It is clear to see how that and the negligence of the French is making a situation worse and putting more lives at risk.

Next thing they will be telling fishermen to go out in storms.

As ever it seems all sensible level headed discussions around asylum seekers or immigration get shut down and people retreat to their political side rather then discussing the humanitarian side of it.

I sat out the last general election and voted Labour in the local elections but it is easy to see why some are still voting for the Conservatives. It is very sad that some things that should be seen in very simple black and white and people try and turn it into a political issue.

I hope a load of poor people don't wash up on a beach dead some day. But I do wonder whether some in this thread would care about them or would actually relish it.

The only ones making it a political issue are Farage and his merry band of clams that think like him and caused this to become a public point of discussion. Other people, and it seems the ones that support the RNLI in this thread, just think they should be left to do their jobs, which is saving lives. I’m not sure where politics comes into that?

 

[Mikey10]

It’s just reassuring to know that Brexit has seen Priti Vacant take back control of our borders…

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The only ones making it a political issue are Farage and his merry band of clams that think like him and caused this to become a public point of discussion. Other people, and it seems the ones that support the RNLI in this thread, just think they should be left to do their jobs, which is saving lives. I’m not sure where politics comes into that?

It is the crossing into French waters and making an already grave situation worse. The is a political angle because they are going out looking and encouraging the issue rather then just waiting for call outs.

We actually swim sometimes next to the lifeboat station on Southwick beach which is a popular little beach. They always have people working and training in there. They seem like decent people but in this instance they are making a serious situation worse.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

It’s just reassuring to know that Brexit has seen Priti Vacant take back control of our borders…

If they ever actually tried to control the borders the are some posters on here who would lose their minds.

This week in politics I was passed off at the mothballing of the Eastern section of the High speed network. The is so much in different areas I can critique this government. But you are still not allowed to talk about laws or rules when it comes to immigration or asylum.

I want a labour government but I fear that we can't take back the Midlands and the North if the left keeps up the way it is going.

 

[LutonSpurs]

The RNLI should only save some drowning people. Got it. Loud and clear. Bellends.

 

[glasgowspur]

The RNLI should only save some drowning people. Got it. Loud and clear. Bellends.

Purely playing devil's advocate here, but whats different from choosing not to have a vaccine when its mandated, and choosing to take a dangerous sea journey endangering not only your life, but others who are trying to rescue you?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Purely playing devil's advocate here, but whats different from choosing not to have a vaccine when its mandated, and choosing to take a dangerous sea journey endangering not only your life, but others who are trying to rescue you?

Vaccines aren't mandated. Number one. Their journey is one of desperation in search of a better future. Apples and Oranges. I'm not sure how you make the analogy at all.

 

[glasgowspur]

Vaccines aren't mandated. Number one. Their journey is one of desperation in search of a better future. Apples and Oranges. I'm not sure how you make the analogy at all.

What are they fleeing in france?
Their actions are endangering others.

At what point do you become responsible for your own actions,?

By not taking the vaccine others are put in danger.
By boarding unsafe vessels or attempting dangerous crossings they are endangering others, those rescusing them and even family members who don't have a say in if they are going or not.

One person's dangerous and reckless behaviour is anothers rights.
It all gets very murky when rules/laws are generalised.

 

[Lilbaz]

Doesn't seem like it will be an issue soon.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/uk-plans-to-send-migrants-to-offshore-asylum-centres-47934

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The RNLI should only save some drowning people. Got it. Loud and clear. Bellends.

No one has said that though have they. You are clearly putting a slant on it.

What I am saying is that they should be focused on British waters, not going into other nations water, unless that nation France in this instance has an emergency and calls for assistance.

If they are going on expeditions to find people and take them from French waters to the UK, which is what the people on the boat want then it simply serves to encourage this cruel and dangerous issue.

What do you think should be done, completely open borders no checks on anyone, no thought for the already over stretched services in costal towns in Kent who have to deal with illegal entry to the UK. How do you feel about the sort of people who tell the French authorities they will kill themselves or children unless they can continue.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

One person's dangerous and reckless behaviour is anothers rights.
It all gets very murky when rules/laws are generalised.

Think this is a big issue. If you start to say some laws and rules can be overlooked then it gives other people the chance to say the same.

Noticeable that a lot of the pro EU posters on here who moaned during Brexit that laws were being broken are OK with it now. So laws are allowed to be broken if it supports your side or tinkles off the side you don't like.

I want a labour government for so many reasons but I refuse to blindly follow one team and support all the issues they care about. I and I wish others were like me will think independently on every issue.

It is my ability to think independently on every subject that makes me the best poster on here, far better then @scaramanga and makes me probably one of the true great thinkers of our age.

 

[Seedy Ron]

What are they fleeing in france?
Their actions are endangering others.

At what point do you become responsible for your own actions,?

By not taking the vaccine others are put in danger.
By boarding unsafe vessels or attempting dangerous crossings they are endangering others, those rescusing them and even family members who don't have a say in if they are going or not.

One person's dangerous and reckless behaviour is anothers rights.
It all gets very murky when rules/laws are generalised.

It's totally irrelevant to the RNLI though. I'm sure they rescue lots of people who have made poor choices somewhere along the line.

I could understand if the ire was being directed at the inability of the UK and French governments to come up with a proper solution to the problem that prevents boats going on the water in the first place, but the suggestion seems to be that, even though we can prevent it, we should be allowing human beings to potentially drown in the channel, because they made a risky decision and have to take responsibly for their own actions?

 

[Baleforce]

would the same logic be applied to the fire dept?

 

[glasgowspur]

It's totally irrelevant to the RNLI though. I'm sure they rescue lots of people who have made poor choices somewhere along the line.

I could understand if the ire was being directed at the inability of the UK and French governments to come up with a proper solution to the problem that prevents boats going on the water in the first place, but the suggestion seems to be that, even though we can prevent it, we should be allowing human beings to potentially drown in the channel, because they made a risky decision and have to take responsibly for their own actions?

There's some saying that if you refuse to have a vaccine then certain NHS services should be witheld, so do we withhold services based on a persons approach to risk, not just to themselves but those obliged to help?

 

[glasgowspur]

would the same logic be applied to the fire dept?

Is there anything logical here?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

would the same logic be applied to the fire dept?

If we have to send the fire service to France to deal with a French problem.

The RNLI are volunteer lead so it does not directly effect the UK tax payer. But should the fire service through their actions be encouraging or condoning illegal and dangerous behaviour then the same criticism would be there.

It seems some on here are obsessed with them being asylum seekers rather then human beings.

Consider them as human beings first and then consider the lives that could be lost and the best way to deter the awful and dangerous practice of crossing the Channel in an unsafe boat.

 

[Seedy Ron]

There's some saying that if you refuse to have a vaccine then certain NHS services should be witheld, so do we withhold services based on a persons approach to risk, not just to themselves but those obliged to help?

Who's saying that? Which services?

If an ambulance crew refused life saving treatment to a patient, because of that patient's vaccine record, and instead left them to their fate, would that be acceptable to you?

Similarly, if a lifeboat crew left an ill equipped rubber dinghy full of people to their fate, despite having a very good idea of what that fate would be, is that acceptable to you?

Consider them as human beings first and then consider the lives that could be lost and the best way to deter the awful and dangerous practice of crossing the Channel in an unsafe boat.

You keep saying stuff like this in some bizarre effort to make it sound like you have a moral leg to stand on. At the point the RNLI are involved, the boat is already at sea. That multiple and continual failures of government lead to that point is nothing to do with the RNLI. They are stepping in to prevent the deaths at sea of those human beings. Your apparent solution of leaving them to it, so that the danger of trying to cross the channel becomes grotesquely apparent on the beaches of the UK and France, as if that will somehow stop the practice, is frankly inhuman.

 

[Baleforce]

Is there anything logical here?

The remit of the emergency services is to aid those who need it, suggesting the RNLI should
only save some people is no different to suggesting the fire phalanx should only put out some fires.

You help everyone you can get to.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Who's saying that? Which services?

If an ambulance crew refused life saving treatment to a patient, because of that patient's vaccine record, and instead left them to their fate, would that be acceptable to you?

Similarly, if a lifeboat crew left an ill equipped rubber dinghy full of people to their fate, despite having a very good idea of what that fate would be, is that acceptable to you?


You keep saying stuff like this in some bizarre effort to make it sound like you have a moral leg to stand on. At the point the RNLI are involved, the boat is already at sea. That multiple and continual failures of government lead to that point is nothing to do with the RNLI. They are stepping in to prevent the deaths at sea of those human beings. Your apparent solution of leaving them to it, so that the danger of trying to cross the channel becomes grotesquely apparent on the beaches of the UK and France, as if that will somehow stop the practice, is frankly inhuman.

It would be acceptable to me of an ambulance crew refused to treat someone who had not had the vaccine.

You can throw fatties and smokers in with them as well as people who do not deserve tax payers money.

If people are in trouble at sea in British waters then they have a duty to help them. But and the point I keep making is to go into French waters and rescue people not even returning them to the nearest port is wrong in my view.

Reports saying people will kill themselves or children if returned to France are very serious. In this country at least attempted suicide is illegal and would result in your arrest. It is clearly the government's that are failing people here.

But the lifeboat association are making the situation worse by going into French waters.