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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

thfcsteff said:
So there should be no social services in your view? I just want to be sure I understand your viewpoint.
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Not one run by the government, no.

I think the government should pay for the medical insurance of those who cannot pay, but the choice of provider should always be down to the consumer.
 
Parklaner81 said:
https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

This shows that the tories have dropped about 8% since the covid crisis broke here, as at this week - movement that you conveniently ignore. But nice try at shaping things to (vaguely) fit your argument.
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I posted stats saying the Tories were polling around 40-45 during 2019 General Election and are polling around 40-45 currently. You then sent a link basically confirming this, but chucking in some additional info saying the Tories have dropped from their heights during COVID. Not quite sure the relevence seeing as i am stating their numbers are still broadly in line with where they were during the GE (which you kindly evidenced for me). My point is, following one of the worst handlings in the world of COVID they're still polling at par from GE, which is mindblowing if you think of the fact we have probably the highest excess death rate in EU and we're chucking around money from the money tree at Boris' pals for zero output.

Parklaner81 said:
You know, you really do remind me of another poster on here...
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You keep saying this and i still don't get it, can you be more explicit? Are you assuming i am someone else or have set up multiple accounts or something? Let me know who this person is, i'll be sure to thank them.
 
Diamond Lights said:
I posted stats saying the Tories were polling around 40-45 during 2019 General Election and are polling around 40-45 currently. You then sent a link basically confirming this, but chucking in some additional info saying the Tories have dropped from their heights during COVID. Not quite sure the relevence seeing as i am stating their numbers are still broadly in line with where they were during the GE (which you kindly evidenced for me). My point is, following one of the worst handlings in the world of COVID they're still polling at par from GE, which is mindblowing if you think of the fact we have probably the highest excess death rate in EU and we're chucking around money from the money tree at Boris' pals for zero output.
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The relevance is that you were complaining that the tories support hasn't suffered. I've demonstrated to you that this is false.

If covid is your major complaint against them, then that is the point at which to compare the data from, not some random earlier point in time because it happens to fit your argument better.

There's been a clear drop in support for the tories since covid - the very thing you were getting worked up about not happening.
 
Diamond Lights said:
I posted stats saying the Tories were polling around 40-45 during 2019 General Election and are polling around 40-45 currently. You then sent a link basically confirming this, but chucking in some additional info saying the Tories have dropped from their heights during COVID. Not quite sure the relevence seeing as i am stating their numbers are still broadly in line with where they were during the GE (which you kindly evidenced for me). My point is, following one of the worst handlings in the world of COVID they're still polling at par from GE, which is mindblowing if you think of the fact we have probably the highest excess death rate in EU and we're chucking around money from the money tree at Boris' pals for zero output.



You keep saying this and i still don't get it, can you be more explicit? Are you assuming i am someone else or have set up multiple accounts or something? Let me know who this person is, i'll be sure to thank them.
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Maybe the electorate disagrees with your belief that
  1. It's their fault
  2. It matters much
 
scaramanga said:
Not one run by the government, no.

I think the government should pay for the medical insurance of those who cannot pay, but the choice of provider should always be down to the consumer.
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So you essentially believe in zero social services via government/taxes? How do we determine who can "pay" for medical insurance? What is your cut-off? And are you then saying that if determined as "eligible" (under your system) the 'consumer' (I prefer -when talking about healthcare- to refer to them as 'member of civilized society') should then have a choice as to which doctor they choose?
 
thfcsteff said:
So you essentially believe in zero social services via government/taxes? How do we determine who can "pay" for medical insurance? What is your cut-off? And are you then saying that if determined as "eligible" (under your system) the 'consumer' (I prefer -when talking about healthcare- to refer to them as 'member of civilized society') should then have a choice as to which doctor they choose?
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Governments of all flavours have repeatedly shown themselves to be terrible at picking winners. Free markets, however, do it really well (it kind of what they're there for).

So we have a system that works like it does in Germany (and a bit like Obamacare) - everyone pays for insurance, the govt pays for the few who cannot. Most importantly, if providers are not performing we get to take our money elsewhere.
 
scaramanga said:
Governments of all flavours have repeatedly shown themselves to be terrible at picking winners. Free markets, however, do it really well (it kind of what they're there for).

So we have a system that works like it does in Germany (and a bit like Obamacare) - everyone pays for insurance, the govt pays for the few who cannot. Most importantly, if providers are not performing we get to take our money elsewhere.
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Quite interested to understand more about how french state owned industries work. For example, is there a net pay back to the tax payer?

The French taxpayer is definitely making money out of the UK. Have you had a delivery from DPD? What is your electricity and gas company? Quite possibly french owned too.

How are these state owned industries bad for the french people? Generating profits for the state instead of private shareholders makes sense and should lead to lower taxation.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Diamond Lights said:
They are narrower, because Labour has increased in the polls, the Tories haven't decreased.

In 2019 in the run up to election nearly every major poll had Tories around 40-45% on opinion poll.

In 2020, nearly every major poll has Tories around 40-45% on opinon poll.

So, after one of the worst death stats in COVID, cronyism, evidence of Russian intereference in our politics, one rule for Tories during lockdown and another for regular people.... the Tories are still at the same level as before. So, per my original point, what exactly has to happen for people to think the Tories are a bit brick?

But hey, don't let any of that stop you telling yourself the story...
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Change tory to SNP and its exactly the same up here, worse actually because polls have them increasing their lead.
So either, don't trust the polls, there is no credible opposition or people are dumb.
Or all three.
 
Seeing as a few of us discuss politics i thought it would be interesting if we put up who we have voted for.

No pressure as it is between you and the ballot box.

1987 my first vote: conservative and Thatcher

1992 did not vote

1997 Labour and Bliar

2001 Labour and Bliar again (was actually a guest at the metropole hotel in Brighton for their conference season, the first wife worked with Saatchi and Saatchi)

2005 no vote destroyed my ballot paper

2010 Conservative and Cameron

2015 UKIP and Farage

2017 UKIP and Farage

2019 no vote

From this i am reading into it that i follow charismatic leaders. Ended up hating Bliar for his lies, same with Cameron and the lisbon treaty back track.

Loved Farage for getting us the referendum but gone off him for cosying up to Trump.

If im around for the next one i would prefer a Labour Government but not sure i trust them over Europe.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Quite interested to understand more about how french state owned industries work. For example, is there a net pay back to the tax payer?

The French taxpayer is definitely making money out of the UK. Have you had a delivery from DPD? What is your electricity and gas company? Quite possibly french owned too.

How are these state owned industries bad for the french people? Generating profits for the state instead of private shareholders makes sense and should lead to lower taxation.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I was trying to make a similar point about BA the other day.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Human trafficking is a horrendous business and it exploits vulnerable people.
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And the way to stop it is to accept only people from aid camps. Taking the appeal away from illegal migration will mean that people rightly claim asylum in the first country they get to and not risk there life to get to the uk.
 
scaramanga said:
Governments of all flavours have repeatedly shown themselves to be terrible at picking winners. Free markets, however, do it really well (it kind of what they're there for).

So we have a system that works like it does in Germany (and a bit like Obamacare) - everyone pays for insurance, the govt pays for the few who cannot. Most importantly, if providers are not performing we get to take our money elsewhere.
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The problem with that is we don't have the political (and lesser so social) ethos to back it up. We would create something more akin to the US - which is a poor option.
 
monkeybarry said:
The problem with that is we don't have the political (and lesser so social) ethos to back it up. We would create something more akin to the US - which is a poor option.
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If there were no free healthcare then those who refused to get insurance wouldn't be around long.
 
scaramanga said:
Governments of all flavours have repeatedly shown themselves to be terrible at picking winners. Free markets, however, do it really well (it kind of what they're there for).

So we have a system that works like it does in Germany (and a bit like Obamacare) - everyone pays for insurance, the govt pays for the few who cannot. Most importantly, if providers are not performing we get to take our money elsewhere.
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Define "winning".
Define "performing".
My Mum survived cancer twice with the NHS. Each time at the Royal Marsden.
If she lived in the US she'd be dead, broke and most likely both (death obviously canceling out 'broke' for her).

The German system is very good but far far closer to ours than the US.
 
thfcsteff said:
Define "winning".
Define "performing".
My Mum survived cancer twice with the NHS. Each time at the Royal Marsden.
If she lived in the US she'd be dead, broke and most likely both (death obviously canceling out 'broke' for her).

The German system is very good but far far closer to ours than the US.
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Picking winners is not a literal term to describe them as the best. It's quite the opposite.

"Picking winners" is a derogatory term describing public procurement that continually fails to keep up with a standard level of what the markets can offer, let alone an excellent one.

For every story of someone doing well on the NHS, there's one like mine. Before I had private healthcare I had to use an NHS hospital. I was in a room with 5 other people. There was a shared toilet between fudge known how many people. Food was only available at set meal times and was made of something I wouldn't even feed an animal. There was no alcohol and nothing whatsoever to do for three days.

Spending time in the "care" of the NHS might suit people who will happily holiday in those backpacker places but it's simply not how to treat human beings.
 
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