Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

We have free trade with the largest market in the world now - the EU.

Are you suggesting giving up that free trade, with increased EU-UK trade friction, will increase free trade, and reduce protectionism?

Odd kind of logic, makes zero sense.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I think we should be able to compete for trade with other EU countries. We shouldn't be forced to make ourselves less competitive because some other EU countries can't compete on a fair basis.

There's no reason why being outside the EU should increase protectionism when the rest of the world (barring Trumpland) is moving away from it.

 

[Grays_1890]

Nissan won’t walk away from the hundreds of millions invested in the massive Sunderland plant when no one yet knows what Brexit will actually entail for sales into the eu.

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Literally making it up as you go along to save face, it’s ok you don’t lose any face if you say you we’re wrong it’s ok.

You were arguing the complete opposite 6 months ago, now all of a sudden you come up with this because Nissan didn’t follow your theory that because of Brexit on the Horizon it’s up sticks.

Your argument was Nissan, Panasonic and Sony were all closing.

Sony downsized by about 10 people and just moved the HQ plaque to Amsterdam and Nissan stays fully.

In fact not many have followed your prediction of up routing but alas as you were

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think we should be able to compete for trade with other EU countries. We shouldn't be forced to make ourselves less competitive because some other EU countries can't compete on a fair basis.

There's no reason why being outside the EU should increase protectionism when the rest of the world (barring Trumpland) is moving away from it.

You mean compete with EU nations for trade outside the EU?

If selling goods into the EU will have grater friction than now, that will hinder UK competition.

Italy and Germany sell far more to non-EU nations than we do now. Once we come out of the EU single market what is going to suddenly change? Where will the new trade with non- EU nations come from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

You mean compete with EU nations for trade outside the EU?

If selling goods into the EU will have grater friction than now, that will hinder UK competition.

Italy and Germany sell far more to non-EU nations than we do now. Once we come out of the EU single market what is going to suddenly change? Where will the new trade with non- EU nations come from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We will be cheaper by not having to keep protectionist EU laws in place.

Filing a few bits of paperwork is not friction. I've mentioned this plenty of times in this thread, bit we import and export both within the EU and externally and the process is no different at all. The forms are different but it's the same info on different forms.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We will be cheaper by not having to keep protectionist EU laws in place.

Filing a few bits of paperwork is not friction. I've mentioned this plenty of times in this thread, bit we import and export both within the EU and externally and the process is no different at all. The forms are different but it's the same info on different forms.

So long as there are not tariffs. I agree, importing goods from the US or China now is not that much harder than from the EU. It does take a little longer though and cost more. For food stuffs however you’d imagine there will be checks on our exports entering the EU if we don’t have a free trade agreement. And we’ll only get that if we abide by EU laws on food stuffs.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

So long as there are not tariffs. I agree, importing goods from the US or China now is not that much harder than from the EU. It does take a little longer though and cost more. For food stuffs however you’d imagine there will be checks on our exports entering the EU if we don’t have a free trade agreement. And we’ll only get that if we abide by EU laws on food stuffs.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We can have the choice - that's what matters.

Those who want to sell to the EU can make their products fit for the EU. Those who don't (>85% of our economy) shouldn't have to.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We can have the choice - that's what matters.

Those who want to sell to the EU can make their products fit for the EU. Those who don't (>85% of our economy) shouldn't have to.

Hopefully. Lamb farmers sell tonnes of meat to the EU, with tariffs on lamb or checks at the border, it will make their enterprise less, not more competitive. If cars face a 10% tariff (WTO rate) being sold from the UK to the EU, then is there any way the Sunderland Nissan plant can continue with the same volume and employment?

89% of UK sheep meat goes to the EU currently.
54% of cars made in the UK are exported to the EU.

These are not small numbers. Sure there is a lot more to the UK economy than sheep and cars, but why downgrade our trading potential, when we get so little back in return from Brexit? In fact we lose a lot like access to crime databases, cooperation on reducing pollution, global influence, helping to control global regulations etc

 

[parklane1]

It's about competing with our nearest competition.

We should have the freedom to do that however we choose and not be constrained by protectionist rules.

You just had to do it again didn't you, start him off his Brexit rubbish agenda.

 

[Grays_1890]

You just had to do it again didn't you, start him off his Brexit rubbish agenda.

Its the end of the world as we know it.....

.....Actually its not

 

[scaramanga]

Hopefully. Lamb farmers sell tonnes of meat to the EU, with tariffs on lamb or checks at the border, it will make their enterprise less, not more competitive. If cars face a 10% tariff (WTO rate) being sold from the UK to the EU, then is there any way the Sunderland Nissan plant can continue with the same volume and employment?

89% of UK sheep meat goes to the EU currently.
54% of cars made in the UK are exported to the EU.

These are not small numbers. Sure there is a lot more to the UK economy than sheep and cars, but why downgrade our trading potential, when we get so little back in return? In fact we lose a lot like access to crime databases, cooperation on reducing pollution, global influence, helping to control global regulations etc

The 85+% that doesn't trade with the EU will save in not having to follow pointless EU regulations for a start.

There will be some winners and some losers bit the overall effect will be beneficial.

 

[Grays_1890]

Is there not an argument that being able to set your own terms cultivates other industries that say being in the EU suppressed?

Make for a more balanced economy? Less reliant on one income?

That’s not overnight, I’m talking generational change.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The 85+% that doesn't trade with the EU will save in not having to follow pointless EU regulations for a start.

There will be some winners and some losers bit the overall effect will be beneficial.

If those eu regulations were clear and obvious then fair play. It’s telling that no one ever mentions the eu regulations that they don’t like or are supposedly holding us back. If they are, why aren’t we clear about what they are?

In reality EU regulations don’t stop us from exporting more to non-eu nations or innovating. There might be some laws that have a small impact but I can’t think of any. Can you?


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[scaramanga]

If those eu regulations were clear and obvious then fair play. It’s telling that no one ever mentions the eu regulations that they don’t like or are supposedly holding us back. If they are, why aren’t we clear about what they are?

In reality EU regulations don’t stop us from exporting more to non-eu nations or innovating. There might be some laws that have a small impact but I can’t think of any. Can you?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I don't like talking too specifically about my industry - it wouldn't be responsible from the position I'm in.

So unfortunately the best you'll get is "because some guy on the internet told me" but yes - we face huge costs from EU legislation, much of which was fought by the UK govt that makes us less competitive than our equivalents in non-EU countries. I've written before about how a non-specific law such as the working time directive makes it virtually impossible for EU businesses to flex skilled staff at anything like the demand required in my industry so I'm sure that's the same for many others.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You can name any law without going into industrial details though?

Working time directive, the UK has an opt-out I recall. Workers can opt-out and some employers have this as part of their standard contract. The EU made allowances for Anglo-Saxon culture on this one.

 

[scaramanga]

You can name any law without going into industrial details though?

Working time directive, the UK has an opt-out I recall. Workers can opt-out and some employers have this as part of their standard contract. The EU made allowances for Anglo-Saxon culture on this one.

The hours cap is only a small part of the legislation and is still a cap, regardless of opt out.

The problem for businesses requiring a large proportion of skilled staff is that we cannot discriminate on whether or not people will work overtime. We cannot discriminate at interview, when choosing staff for promotion or when choosing who to skill up and who to leave as basic labourers. This makes us entirely uncompetitive in the US, the Middle East and other large markets that the EU simply can no longer access in our section of our industry.

 

[monkeybarry]

The hours cap is only a small part of the legislation and is still a cap, regardless of opt out.

The problem for businesses requiring a large proportion of skilled staff is that we cannot discriminate on whether or not people will work overtime. We cannot discriminate at interview, when choosing staff for promotion or when choosing who to skill up and who to leave as basic labourers. This makes us entirely uncompetitive in the US, the Middle East and other large markets that the EU simply can no longer access in our section of our industry.

Not contractually, but you can culturally.
Isn't it preferable to have someone that will buy into the culture rather than do it begrudgingly?

 

[scaramanga]

Not contractually, but you can culturally.
Isn't it preferable to have someone that will buy into the culture rather than do it begrudgingly?

Of course, and we have that.

The problem then is that we cannot use that willingness to promote them over others, to train them over others, we can't even use it as a measure in redundancy discussions, etc.

I don't want to use willingness on overtime to threaten those who don't want to do it - we don't need all of our staff to do it. I want to be able to reward the willing - which is illegal under that legislation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The hours cap is only a small part of the legislation and is still a cap, regardless of opt out.

The problem for businesses requiring a large proportion of skilled staff is that we cannot discriminate on whether or not people will work overtime. We cannot discriminate at interview, when choosing staff for promotion or when choosing who to skill up and who to leave as basic labourers. This makes us entirely uncompetitive in the US, the Middle East and other large markets that the EU simply can no longer access in our section of our industry.

Can't you ascertain by understanding their personal setup? How keen they are to earn vs family commitments etc.

What would happen if you asked a simple question: are you interested in working overtime or do you tend to have commitments? What law would that break?

If UK companies can use zero-hours contracts so widely, maybe you are missing a trick.

 

[monkeybarry]

Of course, and we have that.

The problem then is that we cannot use that willingness to promote them over others, to train them over others, we can't even use it as a measure in redundancy discussions, etc.

I don't want to use willingness on overtime to threaten those who don't want to do it - we don't need all of our staff to do it. I want to be able to reward the willing - which is illegal under that legislation.

Apologies if rehashing,but what do you want to achieve that is illegal?
Opt out means the willing can choose to work over 48 hours.
You are in the private sector so can choose to appoint whoever fits your requirements. You can't turn someone down because they refuse to opt out - so you just find a different criteria for rejection.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Damn the EU. Imposing laws on us that don't really cause us any problems. Some are pretty useful - stopping air and sea pollution, allowing free phone roaming, free car insurance etc.