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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

ShipOfGoldblum said:
However grim things are, the exile of Corby, McDonnell, Lavery, Murphy, Burgon, Trickett, Abbott and all the other trots and tankies is a joy. Centrist dads have our Labour party back.

So, Keir, make the price of signing up to the war cabinet be railway nationalisation, to keep the momentumites happy (and given that the franchisees will be desperate for a way out right now), and then you have a free statesman-in-waiting pass.
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Imagine being voted in as leader of the opposition and you're not even the top story on your own party's propaganda outlet:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
However grim things are, the exile of Corby, McDonnell, Lavery, Murphy, Burgon, Trickett, Abbott and all the other trots and tankies is a joy. Centrist dads have our Labour party back.

So, Keir, make the price of signing up to the war cabinet be railway nationalisation, to keep the momentumites happy (and given that the franchisees will be desperate for a way out right now), and then you have a free statesman-in-waiting pass.
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And water. Plus better funding for the NHS. Plus forcing mega corporations to pay their tax like everyone else. Otherwise you may as well vote for the stinking neo liberals who actually have their heart in it.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Just waiting for the all the constructed right wing anti Starmer memes now. What... he's a Stalinist and an anti Semite? That will never do. Watch this space.
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I don't mind him. He's wrong about Brexit, but better men than him have been.

As long as he doesn't try to appeal to the mental left of his party he'll make a good party leader and possibly a good PM.

My concern is that he's already had to take on pledges to become leader that are way left of his natural position. The fact that the Communists seem to hate him so much is promising though.
 
scaramanga said:
I don't mind him. He's wrong about Brexit, but better men than him have been.

As long as he doesn't try to appeal to the mental left of his party he'll make a good party leader and possibly a good PM.

My concern is that he's already had to take on pledges to become leader that are way left of his natural position. The fact that the Communists seem to hate him so much is promising though.
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My thoughts exactly
I know from work with the people that are “in the know” in politics they see him as a breath of fresh air as he is intelligent, works on the basis of humanity and has a rep for getting stuff done

so a boris with brains but one that cares
 
Bedfordspurs said:
My thoughts exactly
I know from work with the people that are “in the know” in politics they see him as a breath of fresh air as he is intelligent, works on the basis of humanity and has a rep for getting stuff done

so a boris with brains but one that cares
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Boris cares, just not about you ;)
 
monkeybarry said:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-universal-basic-income-europe-a9449336.html

@Rorschach

Decided to move this here instead though hijacking the Coronavirus thread as property might need the information.
I'm very split on this - I love the principle and think it's the way fwd, but see some hurdles that may be insurmountable.
I will we a more full post soon - got a few things to do first.

But I'm interested to hear your vision.
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I'll come back on this (if I have time) but the short version is that the main arguments against implementing UBI actually don't actually hold up in the instances it where it has been implemented, and actually more often the complete opposite happens. I imagine you could probably come up with a list of reasons yourself why this might be a bad idea, and that would be nearly identical to my own preconceived notions, but I have been argued out of that position by the data and the results. It remains to be seen if an entire country can follow the trajectory of the smaller models but the one main take away is that rather than being a drain on the coffers, UBI turns out to be an adrenaline surge for economic activity. If you assume also that year on year more jobs will be automated away then this was probably inevitable anyway. The virus has just accelerated the timeline, IMO.
 
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Rorschach said:
I'll come back on this (if I have time) but the short version is that the main arguments against implementing UBI actually don't actually hold up in the instances it where it has been implemented, and actually more often the complete opposite happens. I imagine you could probably come up with a list of reasons yourself why this might be a bad idea, and that would be nearly identical to my own preconceived notions, but I have been argued out of that position by the data and the results. It remains to be seen if an entire country can follow the trajectory of the smaller models but the one main take away is that rather than being a drain on the coffers, UBI turns out to be an adrenaline surge for economic activity. If you assume also that year on year more jobs will be automated away then this was probably inevitable anyway. The virus has just accelerated the timeline, IMO.
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@monkeybarry
Saw this on my twitter feed. He's made this chapter free from his old book....promo for his new book methinks.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I just can't see you buying say plastic plates for your picnic, appraising the emissions of the factory that made them. Can you? I personally think it is great the EU does that all for me. And without that regulation, how can you have fair trade across a continent!? If one factory is undercutting UK factories by producing things while polluting? Same is true with sea pollution. We all like a clean beach, pollution is not national, it moves across borders faster than a Syrian refugee. So you are yet to convince that nation-states could work this out independently without some kind of body to coordinate.
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i think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as i think the free market will better reflect what people actually want. essentially, i dont actually think populations/consumers actaully want to be as green as they say. theres always a greener (and more expensive) solution to products/services that people buy, or behaviours that people undertake. however the fact that people are choosing not to go down the green route tells me that this isnt what people want. essentially, they dont think this is a really significant issue.

on a slightly unrelated note, the issue for the environment is simple imo. we need to be able to quantify the damage being done, and quantify the effect of the actions we take. its impossible to tell growing economies in china, africa, asia etc that they need to cut emissions by x, when in 10 years time we have absolutely no idea whether this brought a 1% or 60% benefit to the area. until we can get to this stage, im not sure how much benefit there is in having the environmental debate imo. you're simply not going to be able to tell growing african economies that theyre going to have to take a hit when we dont even know what the benefit really is.

SpurMeUp said:
The e-passports point is quite funny because what you are describing is what you get in the EU! Countries with similar laws cooperate via the EU have exactly what you asked for...but you outline the body that helps them do this as "questionable". The reason we won't get these facilities outside the EU is that we will have a different set of regulations and laws. Anyone could take in or out goods that are not approved, or no checks could allow in illegal immigrants. In short, outside the club, don't expect the benefits of membership.
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i disagree that this is what we get with eu membership.
- would we have the same relationship with countries likes hungary without the eu?
- also we're forced to adopt trade agreements with all eu members, closing capacity to trade outside of the eurozone. under a freerer market, i think we would be more selective with who we trade with from within the eu, thus opening up more opportunities from outside of the eu

however i generally agree that the eu (or similar organisation) isnt a bad thing when aligning trade rules and regulations. this is what i think the eu should limit itself to. leave the moral issues to the memberstates. theres too much cultural difference in this space, causing a lot of friction.


SpurMeUp said:
No doubt freedom of movement is a big one. Some questions for you:

  • Where did the EU 'advocate' mass migration? The UK choose, with its own sovereign government, to allow free movement from the new eastern nations while Germany, France and others kept their doors locked for the transition period. That led to far more EU migration for 5-10 years of whatever it was.
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"European migrant crisis"


SpurMeUp said:
  • Is the majority of migration into the UK from non-EU nations or the EU? Who controls non-EU migration into the UK?
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as you know, the majority is from the eu. but that would be a lot lower if eu migration was capped leaving more capacity from non-eu nations. the policies released earlier this year will accomodate this. essentially this should leave the economy a bit better as we have greater scope to pick and choose who comes in.

SpurMeUp said:

  • No, we know for sure. Laws are black and white. If you can't tell me one, respectfully, it is probably because there isn't an EU law that really affects you negatively. The anti-EU print media would have flagged it, and you'd know it. There are quite a few laws that probably benefit you though.

  • Farmers do very well out of the EU. They are protected in general. Which makes sense as post-WWII nations realised they couldn't feed themselves unless they subsidised their farmers. Would you prefer we lost our UK famers?

  • Which businesses have been denied access to the EU free market? Businesses losing free access is the reality of Brexit. An upside-down argument me thinks.
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i've given examples of policies, there are plenty more as im sure you are aware. you can choose to accept them or not, thats up to you.

i say that im not sure, because we can never know what the alternative is/was. i guess we'll find out over the next few years to some degree.

some farmers do very well from the eu, and some do not. i guess im simply against the perceived unnecessary state meddling in industries that would be fine under less regulation/interference.

if the eu didnt subsidise uk farmers, who do you think would subsidise uk farmers?

also, as ive mentioned earlier, i prefer a free market environment. any worthwhile industry should be self-sufficient and shouldnt require expensive subsidies long term. the fact that the eu are adamant on subsidising and re balancing so many industries across the eu ultimately means that theres a lot of inefficiency and possibly corruption.

SpurMeUp said:
What more have you read about the EU, what did it say? Really what your summation says to me, is I've made an emotional decision I don't like external bodies interfering (understand that emotion) and I won't change my mind whatever evidence I see.

Apologies wrong thread. Will refrain. Can post a reply if you wish in the politics thread. But I don't think people are really interested in logic or rationale. Its pure emotion.
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the same can be said about your emotional summation. essentially, i just dont believe that such a large bureaucratic body is required, meddling into so many aspects of our lives. this is costly and inefficient. like i've said, there is likely scope for something more like the eec, solely focusing on trade and integrating economies. but all the moral/ethical stuff that is causing friction can be dealt with locally.
 
@Wilheldiva I am genuinely open to Brexit being a success. I'd love it to be. I agree with a lot of the sentiment (emotion) of it. But the logical rational business and reality side of it does not stack up. And many of your points don't either. In reverse order:

- You keep referring to a large bureaucratic body. Is an organisation the size of Brum council working with 27 nations across a continent, actually large? Or inefficient. Honestely, is it really? Or is your instinct an emotional one not based on the reality of it? Do you have any evidence to back your point up, or is it an emotional response?

- You have not outlined one area of your life that the EU 'meddles' negatively, let alone the "so many aspects of our lives". So I can't help see your response as emotion, not fact.

- Which moral/ethical stuff is causing friction, any examples?

- Free and fair trade requires some regulation. As outlined you can't have one factory using a cheap polluting chemical in one nation with it banned in another. Isn't that obvious? If you like a free market, you have to be realistic with what is possible for it to work. It is an amazing thing. A whole continent able to trade freely. But we have built up such a negative image of the EU over the years. I put this down to papers needing something fun to write about when dull trade agreements etc that the EU is engaged in is just not newsworthy. The EU don't fight back either to protect their image, they don't have a representative to in each country, they just get on with their job of facilitating free trade and looking out for member nations - all dull stuff. Dull stuff that is done for us.


I can refute all your other points but it is dull. For example:

If the EU didn't subsidise our farmers, the UK government would. So no big change. But there is, because lamb farmers can not freely sell lamb to a continent anymore meaning a loss of a major industry. So the net outcome is a big loss for the UK. Now there are all sorts of scenarios like this. A minority of industrial scenarios might actually favour us the UK, selling to non-EU nations but in the main they don't. Why are we not selling more to non-eu nations now as Italy and Germany do so successfully from within the EU? We gain little, and lose a lot more from Brexit. That is the non-emotional reality. And why it boils my blood is that people are not able to deconstruct and model that reality. I don't blame them - its complex and dull. But it is clear if you leave the emotion to one side and pull it apart.

The EU migrant crisis was not caused by the EU. If you'd care to look, the EU paid Turkey and other African nations to help stem the flow of people fleeing war. The EU actually provided a mechanism for nations to work together to help control the crisis, and got Turkey to setup camps so these refugees didn't enter Europe. But despite this reality, you will hold this event as evidence of the EU as bad. Yes its complex, but who told you this misinformation, who is kidding you?

A free market can not address pollution. You need some leadership from national and ideally international bodies, precisely for the reasons you outline - we need China and Africa onside. Who can achieve that? Britain by itself, or the whole of Europe using its power collectively. It is not a coincidence that the EU was born form nations who lost their colonies. Portugal, Spain, France, Holand and England all became rich global powers through exploitation (and I don't mean negatively necessarily) of other lands. When that came to an end, these clever nations maintained their collective global power. By working together. The UK vs China - no chance. The UK vs the US...ah we end up in their pocket their quaint lackey.

Apart from a slightly moany section, this perfectly sums up the pointlessness of Brexit for me. Would love to know what you think of it https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done

Oh and PS you are wrong about migration. Non-EU migration to the UK is a far more than EU migration. And we control all that here in good ol blighty.
 
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