Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Hootnow]

Any chinks in policy, anything that can embarrass, anything that is a miss - it is the opposition's job to flag it up, and try and win as much political capital. The government will then move to correct the omission or oversight. In theory. It does work to an extent. This clever Tory government have stolen Labour's thunder, so Labour can't exactly start representing big business as the Tory's represent the north. It is a strange political landscape where the Conservatives no longer really represent the likes of Scara, and the southern right.

I understand the underlying thought behind it, I'm just not sure that most people really have the memory or interest in politics to remember the zinger that the leader of the opposition dropped on the PM 4 years ago on PMQs while 72 people watch. I'm not sure how much people absorb it either. Due to the very nature of party politics in this country, literally every single thing the ruling party does is attacked by the opposition and the smaller parties.

The Tories (or labour if they were in power) could come up with the most incredible policy, full costed, not disadvantaging anyone and the other parties will still find something to criticise.

I'm not really sure who represents who anymore. I do get a feeling of Turkeys voting for Christmas in this last election though and to be completely frank, I'm not sure I have any real sympathy anymore.

 

[Hootnow]

Fair enough. Though the scenario you refer to almost sounds like an individual case, or at least a pretty narrow subset of voter. Either way, it's not a scenario I've actually come across. I'd be pretty confident that my scenario would've been a far more significant driver of the vote at this election.

I was talking about a few individual cases when I said the vote for change thing. I'm well aware that many people voted in this election to make sure Brexit got done and because they were fed up with hearing about Brexit.

What I do find slightly amusing is that many people think they'll stop hearing about Brexit and the EU after January. Not realising that this has been the appetiser and after January comes the main course of actually negotiating our future relationship with, despite some British peoples' seemingly visceral hatred of the EU and Europe, our neighbours, biggest trading partners and arguably closest peoples culturally. Even if the French are utter tacos.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I understand the underlying thought behind it, I'm just not sure that most people really have the memory or interest in politics to remember the zinger that the leader of the opposition dropped on the PM 4 years ago on PMQs while 72 people watch. I'm not sure how much people absorb it either. Due to the very nature of party politics in this country, literally every single thing the ruling party does is attacked by the opposition and the smaller parties.

The Tories (or labour if they were in power) could come up with the most incredible policy, full costed, not disadvantaging anyone and the other parties will still find something to criticise.

I'm not really sure who represents who anymore. I do get a feeling of Turkeys voting for Christmas in this last election though and to be completely frank, I'm not sure I have any real sympathy anymore.

Well you're the same to some degree You earn a decent amount, and the Tories will protect that. Labour would threaten it. In that sense, your allegiance is just as illogical.

Opposition is not just a public thing, it is a governmental thing. It can all happen in a Westminister bubble. I have lobbied on disabled peoples rights, and intended cuts. Labour MPs have then put pressure onto government ministers, who then contact the civil service (BIS at the time) and the civil servants amended the policy change as a result. It can work. None of it makes the news.

I hear your frustration re. public opinion, the press etc. It was so clear from a few years back that the establishment would not let Corbyn get a fair crack. They chipped away, made anti-semitism etc etc the big issue etc. But you know what, in truth, the conservatives are more competent. Corbyn would have needed 20 years to get his vision right, and would have bankrupted the nation and died beforehand. The vision wasn't properly outlined and resembled a student manifesto. So democracy did its job.

 

[Hootnow]

1 - workers will always have the right to refuse a job offer if they don't like the conditions.

3 - Consumers can choose what we do with our carbon footprint. Currently that's less than Labour wanted and more than nothing. Education and choice are the answers, not hair shirts.

6 - Any refugee that is already in an EU country is safe and therefore doesn't need safe harbour to the UK. We have a duty to protect those who come directly here if they are in danger from the place they're leaving. We don't have any duty to take people from France or Germany because they'd rather be in the UK.

Needless to say, I have diametrically different views to you on this and I don't think either of us will change the other's view on it so let's leave it there for now.

I will just point out that, contrary to what has become popular opinion, the Geneva convention does not mandate that refugees and asylum seekers have to stay in the first safe country they make it to.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Opposition is not just a public thing, it is a governmental thing. It can all happen in a Westminister bubble. I have lobbied on disabled peoples rights, and intended cuts. Labour MPs have then put pressure onto government ministers, who then contact the civil service (BIS at the time) and the civil servants amended the policy change as a result. It can work. None of it makes the news.

Your a good guy.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I will tell you one thing on politics that no one can debate and that is that Lucas is a cnut. Used to enjoy reading the local newspaper. Since the election jesus she has got even worse.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Your a good guy.

You're too kind. Never intended it. As well as helping disabled students it helped my business, so I can't claim it was altruistic. A genuine good guy was David Blunket. I was so honoured to meet him and his guide dog. Of the 20 or so MPs I met during that time, he was head and shoulders the most impressive. I'll never know but I suspect his intervention was key. He carries so much weight and respect.

Brought up on a council estate and blind from birth the odds were not exactly stacked in his favour. I've met few other people as intelligent and perceptive. A hero.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

What a functioning opposition does is stop the government straying too far from the middle ground. Since the mid 80s both parties have been fighting over the centre ground and the country is far better for it.

If Labour make themselves unelectable (and they have) then there's nothing to stop the Conservatives lurching to the right. They have far more leeway to work in as it would take something as extremely right that would equal Labour's extreme left stance before the public start to even consider the other party.

Election time might be the only time we get to exercise that choice, but that vast majority will base their decisions on what the two parties have been doing for the past few years.

That is too funny.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Oh dear. Would he call him that to his face?

Of course not. Nayim is a little bed wetting cry baby who takes offence at the drop of a hat, but who doesn't mind dishing it out.

 

[scaramanga]

Needless to say, I have diametrically different views to you on this and I don't think either of us will change the other's view on it so let's leave it there for now.

I will just point out that, contrary to what has become popular opinion, the Geneva convention does not mandate that refugees and asylum seekers have to stay in the first safe country they make it to.

I certainly don't think refugees should be stuck forever in the first country they land. Once they're citizens of that country they'll be free to move around as per that country's international agreements.

 

[scaramanga]

I understand the underlying thought behind it, I'm just not sure that most people really have the memory or interest in politics to remember the zinger that the leader of the opposition dropped on the PM 4 years ago on PMQs while 72 people watch. I'm not sure how much people absorb it either. Due to the very nature of party politics in this country, literally every single thing the ruling party does is attacked by the opposition and the smaller parties.

The Tories (or labour if they were in power) could come up with the most incredible policy, full costed, not disadvantaging anyone and the other parties will still find something to criticise.

I'm not really sure who represents who anymore. I do get a feeling of Turkeys voting for Christmas in this last election though and to be completely frank, I'm not sure I have any real sympathy anymore.

That's not always the case but has certainly risen under (and been encouraged by) Corbyn and Momentum.

Take a read of what William Hague writes about being in opposition to Blair. Cameron and his socially acceptable conservatism was a direct result of Blair dominating the centre ground. There were plenty of backbenchers who thought the way to win was to move right and differentiate, but instead the party did the right thing. They fought (and lost) over the centre ground until Brown fudged up and they then owned that part of the spectrum.

Edit: I know for plenty of ideologues the concept of a race to the middle must seem like the worst possible option but history tells us that's where this county settles best. We're a centre-right nation by default and when both major parties coalesce around that area, we all benefit.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Of course not. Nayim is a little bed wetting cry baby who takes offence at the drop of a hat, but who doesn't mind dishing it out.

I would need to think anything you said had value to find any offence in your comments.

 

[Grays_1890]

Visas are more hassle than free movement obviously. More red tape and paperwork. At the moment a nurse in Portugal can apply for a job online and be at an interview the next day if necessary. A visa is a barrier. And as MrHoot says, people won't feel welcome plus the 15% drop in the pound has made the UK much much less attractive.

Will the government do the same for other industries? Like fruit picking? If so, where do you draw the line, and what was the point? All you've done is create bureaucracy and damage the UK economy, for what benefit?

Ive done paperwork to work in Dubai and Kuwait to earn big money and follow my career when there was a need for my skills.

Its easy

 

[SpurMeUp]

Ive done paperwork to work in Dubai and Kuwait to earn big money and follow my career when there was a need for my skills.

Its easy

No doubt. But if you want to ensure people are not just putting "nurse" in the job field to get an easy visa, it has to be robust - there have to be some checks and delay. And it is another layer of hassle which doesn't exist now. Either the applicant or the UK tax payer will pay for the service.

Then would you extend such visas to UK farmers who need fruit pickers? Or building contractors who rely on imported labour to do the most menial jobs?

 

[Grays_1890]

No doubt. But if you want to ensure people are not just putting "nurse" in the job field to get an easy visa, it has to be robust - there have to be some checks and delay. And it is another layer of hassle which doesn't exist now. Either the applicant or the UK tax payer will pay for the service.

Then would you extend such visas to UK farmers who need fruit pickers? Or building contractors who rely on imported labour to do the most menial jobs?

Thats the plan, jobs of where there is need they will have a Visa process that is easier and faster.

You can have an easy robust system if you are in a certain profession that is also swift, they turn Visa's applications around in an afternoon at Bedford Point in Croydon as long as you produce the correct paperwork which supports your claim. I think its easy to prove you are a nurse

 

[SpurMeUp]

Thats the plan, jobs of where there is need they will have a Visa process that is easier and faster.

You can have an easy robust system if you are in a certain profession that is also swift, they turn Visa's applications around in an afternoon at Bedford Point in Croydon as long as you produce the correct paperwork which supports your claim. I think its easy to prove you are a nurse

So you end up with immigration numbers that are the same - may be even higher than now? Very few EU immigrants come here and don't work, which means there is demand. On top of that you will end up with less EU migration and more RoW migration. Do you think people are being sold a pup here?

 

[Grays_1890]

So you end up with immigration numbers that are the same - may be even higher than now? Very few EU immigrants come here and don't work, which means there is demand. On top of that you will end up with less EU migration and more RoW migration. Do you think people are being sold a pup here?

Not sure how you come to that conclusion, there are approx 200,000 unemployed immigrants in the UK

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion, there are approx 200,000 unemployed immigrants in the UK

You said, "jobs where there is a need they will have a visa..." The need won't change unless the economy tanks.

I don't know about the 200,000 unemployed immigrants. What is classed as an immigrant? Where is the data from?

 

[Grays_1890]

You said, "jobs where there is a need they will have a visa..." The need won't change unless the economy tanks.

I don't know about the 200,000 unemployed immigrants. What is classed as an immigrant? Where is the data from?

So high need jobs where their skills are necessary to fill the gaps where we have the skill. Not duplicate skills we may already have.

Office of national statistics

 

[SpurMeUp]

So high need jobs where their skills are necessary to fill the gaps where we have the skill. Not duplicate skills we may already have.

Office of national statistics

Don't get me wrong, it could work. BUT it will rely on the government investing in skills training. And maybe the economy declining so that Brits want to do menial work again. The demand from employers is there, and if you just give a visa for every need you'll have the same numbers (maybe more than now).

Have you got a link for the ONS stat?