Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Grays_1890]

A document loaded with accusations. Many, but not all made by people with an axe to grind. How much of it is proven? Let's make an inquiry into Tory racism and see what that turns up? It's called going on a fishing expedition and is the oldest trick in the play book. if one did find systematic Tory racism, just how press coverage would it get? I can answer that one for you. Zero, none, ziltch. because it doesn't suit the political aims of the economic elite of this country. Johnson has openly made racist comments, something by the way Corbyn has never done. Yet Corbyn has been the one vilified. Says it all really. Next!

Genuine question

Do you think Corbyn lost purely because of the smear campaign? Do you accept that he is in some ways at fault himself or are you of the mindset that he is blameless?

I am only asking because I honestly only ever see from Labour supporters that Corbyn has been hard done by and its all everyone elses fault?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Theres a difference between surviving and being at the table or in any way relevant.

If Labour continue as they are they will be replaced, and fondly remembered by certain unstable types - but little more than a memory.

If there is one shift in politics Im in favour of, its kicking out sentimentality.

People are voting Conservative that I have no doubt have previously vowed they never would.

That means they are actually paying attention, and not just blindly following their team.

This can only be good. We need more of it.

Replaced by what?. the LDP? Ha, ha, ha. Of course it wasn't Brexit Wot Done It. it was the fact that these deprived communities, that have been shat on from a great height by the Tories are now putting all their faith in Boris. Boris is their salvation. Yeah, that will last. These northern Tory member are known as 'Oncers.' They will most likely all be swept away at the next vote. This is not unusual. Ten years ago the Canadian Conservative Party that were previously the government were reduced to about half a dozen members. Within ten years they were back in government. Yeah wishful thinking on your part mate.

 

[Grays_1890]

Presumably in Moscow? What's your experience of the city? Is it in the summer?

Its usually March, city is beautiful but expensive.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Genuine question

Do you think Corbyn lost purely because of the smear campaign? Do you accept that he is in some ways at fault himself or are you of the mindset that he is blameless?

I am only asking because I honestly only ever see from Labour supporters that Corbyn has been hard done by and its all everyone elses fault?

Corbyn was naive. He over promised and that led to some credibility issues. That said, anybody who says that this wasn't mainly decided by Brexit is self serving. The spread of the Leave vote was always going to make it very hard for Labour. Farange's Tory front group, was designed to siphon Leave votes from Labour voters who could not face a vote for the Tories and that also hurt. The Murdoch press were raging about with foam spilling from their mouths, but that had to be expected when a Labour oppostion puts forward real radical policies for a change. Labour have to counter act that.

 

[Grays_1890]

Replaced by what?

In my mind politics will change in this country and maybe the world in the next 10-20 years beyond recognition. The worlds changed but politics has not changed with it, we still vote the same way and still have the same archaic ways as 100+ years ago. This will change in my opinion, if this means parties will change I don't know but the way people consume their information is so much different that the loyalty will never be the same, the northern mushroom mentality, feed them brick and keep them in the dark can't exist anymore, people are connected, people can see what is happening across the company. People won't want a right or left split in future, they will want abit of everything that makes up the ultimately best choice for the country. Abit like what I experienced, I didn't vote because in a perfect world I would want some of the Tory pledge, some of the Labour pledge and some of the others.

 

[Grays_1890]

Corbyn was naive. He over promised and that led to some credibility issues. That said, anybody who says that this wasn't mainly decided by Brexit is self serving. The spread of the Leave vote was always going to make it very hard for Labour. Farange's Tory front group, was designed to siphon Leave votes from Labour voters who could not face a vote for the Tories and that also hurt. The Murdoch press were raging about with foam spilling from their mouths, but that had to be expected when a Labour oppostion puts forward real radical policies for a change. Labour have to counter act that.

Fair assessment. There is no doubting a huge Labour fracture. Alot of Labourites have lashed out and Tories and the press, used provocative terms like racism towardss voters but the main issue is that Labour haemorrhaged life long left voting supporters, so are we saying that Labour have had a silent racist faction for years in these life long voters that have now jumped ship? Thats where I see it being torn, you ( I don't mean you specifically) can cry racism in the voters but a huge amount of them are life long labour voters

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

"if one did find systematic Tory racism, just how press coverage would it get? I can answer that one for you. Zero, none, ziltch. because it doesn't suit the political aims of the economic elite "

Yep. No sign of crank there at all. All perfectly reasonable...


Labour is in crisis. Deny it all you like, doesnt change things. The anti semitism is but part of it.

Clearly you don't read the papers. There isnt much critical of the Tories in the Murdoch dominated press.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Fair assessment. There is no doubting a huge Labour fracture. Alot of Labourites have lashed out and Tories and the press, used provocative terms like racism towardss voters but the main issue is that Labour haemorrhaged life long left voting supporters, so are we saying that Labour have had a silent racist faction for years in these life long voters that have now jumped ship? Thats where I see it being torn, you ( I don't mean you specifically) can cry racism in the voters but a huge amount of them are life long labour voters

Not every Leave vote was motivated by racism, but clearly many of them were. We have one of these odd little fellows in our midst here in this very thread.

 

[Grays_1890]

Not every Leave vote was motivated by racism, but clearly many of them were. We have one of these odd little fellows in our midst here in this very thread.

THe point I am making though is that racism is not a one party trait, if leave or racism was a driving force for voting Tories then Labour must had had many in their ranks for years

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

THe point I am making though is that racism is not a one party trait, if leave or racism was a driving force for voting Tories then Labour must had had many in their ranks for years

More a case of supporters than members I would think. None of the members I know are racists, but that doesn't mean there aren't any of course. It is easy to blame minorities for long waiting times in casualty centres, crowded trains and under resourced schools than to blame the real culprits... the err... government.

 

[StephenH]

the perfect storm.
Corbyn and Co and Momentum killed Labour. Brexit was the tap to the back of the head to make sure.

The Labour party (cr2015-19) RIP

 

[scaramanga]

Really!? When was the last time you were at the ballet?

July - I go to a show almost every year.

What is "it"? I'm not defending the Russian state. Of course homophobia it's wrong. Yet Russia has a thriving gay scene, it's probably more open than in many other nations.

I'm fairly sure gay isn't something that can be put on or removed for a night out, so I don't know what value a gay scene has to a community.

What I am sure of though, is that not being able to be openly gay is entirely wrong, as is brushing it off as just how things are.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Replaced by what?. the LDP? Ha, ha, ha. Of course it wasn't Brexit Wot Done It. it was the fact that these deprived communities, that have been shat on from a great height by the Tories are now putting all their faith in Boris. Boris is their salvation. Yeah, that will last. These northern Tory member are known as 'Oncers.' They will most likely all be swept away at the next vote. This is not unusual. Ten years ago the Canadian Conservative Party that were previously the government were reduced to about half a dozen members. Within ten years they were back in government. Yeah wishful thinking on your part mate.

Deprived communities... traditionally Labour strongholds (literally for decades)... screwed by the powers from on high (10 year Tory govnt?)... Choose to vote Tory ---- for Boris (the blatant clam).....

But thats NOTHING to do with saint Jezza, no sign of the Labour party being in strife, it must be Brexit and corrupt media and and and - ANYTHING else...

Just be honest. Labour are in the brick. And its thanks to Corbyn and his politics. You can admit as much while still thinking he was right, its simply an objective view.

What would they be replaced by? A moderate centre left party.

If Labour continue to stay way out left where they are, someone will fill the vacuum - its virtually a law of physics. Who/what I dont know at this point. But it is ignorance in the extreme to just assume Labour has always been, so WILL always be.

And if people in the party think like you, Id suggest they are in far greater trouble than I initially thought.

 

[SpurMeUp]

July - I go to a show almost every year.


I'm fairly sure gay isn't something that can be put on or removed for a night out, so I don't know what value a gay scene has to a community.

What I am sure of though, is that not being able to be openly gay is entirely wrong, as is brushing it off as just how things are.

I didn't realise you were so politically correct or gay rights-focused. Good for you!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Its usually March, city is beautiful but expensive.

Cold that time of year! I wouldn't call Moscow beautiful. I found it quite affordable for capital. A taxi from the airport to the city about a quarter of the cost in London. Eating out about half to two thirds the cost in London. Naturally, you will be boycotting the show this year?

 

[Parklaner81]

I think Jess Phillips will be a moderate shadow cabinet position at best. They need her in the Dennis Skinner type role - to be mouthy and moral. She'd be wasted as leader.

Agree with all of that. Trouble is, I think it's fairly easy to rule out pretty much all of the names I've seen mentioned so far.

Long-Bailey just doesn't look like a leader to me. Nandy (who I personally am probably the most sympathetic to, but then I'm not a Labour voter & am highly unlikely to ever be one again) looks even more of a stretch. Thornberry I honestly believe would give Jezza a run for his money in the toxicity stakes, while Starmer's going to struggle with the current backdrop unless he suddenly decides to start identifying as female.

Not sure who that leaves, but I'd still make Phillips as good a bet as any of them.

 

[Parklaner81]

I think you're right, it's only down here on in for the SNP, they have huge internal issues that are being ignored and they are in a rush for a vote before it all unravels.
The bloodbath from the salmond Court case will be interesting. Assuming its not glossed over, the SNP refuse FOI requests on anything even slightly damaging, so hopefully this will burst a lot these wide open.

Makes sense - it's pretty clear even from down here that Sturgeon's bent on rushing it through as quickly as humanly possible.

 

[Parklaner81]

Corbyn was naive. He over promised and that led to some credibility issues. That said, anybody who says that this wasn't mainly decided by Brexit is self serving. The spread of the Leave vote was always going to make it very hard for Labour. Farange's Tory front group, was designed to siphon Leave votes from Labour voters who could not face a vote for the Tories and that also hurt. The Murdoch press were raging about with foam spilling from their mouths, but that had to be expected when a Labour oppostion puts forward real radical policies for a change. Labour have to counter act that.

I don't believe it was 'mainly brexit'. Brexit was a big part of it, Corbyn and his policies were also a big part. I'd say they were problems of roughly equal size.

I think many hardcore Labour supporters are playing down the 'Corbyn' issue because of the 2017 result, when he benefitted from a complacent tory party and an equally complacent public, among whom there was a widespread desire to give May a kick up the arse on her way to a majority. That was always my reading of the 2017 election - I seem to remember calling 'peak Corbyn' on here a few days after it only to be shouted down by the pro-Labour hordes, all rooster-a-hoop that they'd only lost by 60-odd seats, and full of how Jezza'd win next time...

Oh, and I think you win understatement of the decade for saying Corbyn had 'some credibility issues'...

 

[scaramanga]

People said that the tories were irrelevant during the Blair years, they said that they were a spent force too. All hubris. Let's hope that this continues. The Labour Party will still be around well after we are all dead and buried. It has survived worse shocks than this.

They were irrelevant because Labour took the centre ground and they couldn't compete.

The Conservatives now hold the (Overton Window adjusted) centre ground, leaving Labour in the wilderness. If Labour do the sensible thing and return to the centre they will return to relevance.

 

[scaramanga]

I didn't realise you were so politically correct or gay rights-focused. Good for you!

That should be the norm. Any less is unacceptable.