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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Seedy Ron said:
Nigel doesn't really want Brexit, he'd cease to exist. It's almost worth Brexitting.

Is Jeremy's Brexit stance now People's Vote?
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I think its "I want to leave", "Let me get a BETTER deal"*, "Let you decide after".

*He will not get a better deal at all, the notion is hilarious.

So really what he wants is "Make me PM", "Let me fudge it up so bad you choose to remain", "Remain", "Woo! Im the PM!"
 
The Brexit party standing candidates everywhere will see Labour and the Lib Dems hoovering up a lot of seats, we've already seen 2 by-elections this year where that exact scenario happened. I'm sure there will be some back door agreement somewhere.
 
P.D. said:
The Brexit party standing candidates everywhere will see Labour and the Lib Dems hoovering up a lot of seats, we've already seen 2 by-elections this year where that exact scenario happened. I'm sure there will be some back door agreement somewhere.
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They won't do that.

The fastest way to stop Brexit is for them to field candidates in seats where the Conservatives might win.
 
P.D. said:
The Brexit party standing candidates everywhere will see Labour and the Lib Dems hoovering up a lot of seats, we've already seen 2 by-elections this year where that exact scenario happened. I'm sure there will be some back door agreement somewhere.
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At the same time, do you not think the Lib Dems will take a fair chunk of the Labour remain vote?

And Im pretty sure BP picked up Labour leave votes as well (anyone but Tory, obviously), though that was the Euro elections and so perhaps not indicative.
 
Brexit in name only is the only deliverable Brexit - if you play it out. Boris wins a majority and goes full-tilt trying to get an EU trade deal. The UK needs that trade access to the EU. But the EU won't compromise the single market - give us free trade access with no strings, why would they? Bino is what we'll end up with.

If Bino is Brexit (which it would be) why bother!? This simple logic has been obvious for a few years now >
  • Hard Brexit with no free eu trade = terrible for the UK economy. Shooting ourselves in the foot.
  • Soft Brexit/ Bino = We get less control. Why bother?
  • Leavers are not able to make a case against this logic - unless they lie or promise impossibilities.
Brexit has been deeply flawed since its inception. Boris "getting Brexit done" is failing at a trade deal with the EU and delivering Bino. There are no other logical outcomes. The only way we get free trade with the US is to open up the NHS and food to US conglomerates, and we won't trade as much with the US and we do the EU anyway. As it takes a week or more for ship to/from the US. While smaller more agile lorries can currently go seamlessly from Europe-UK in a day.

Anyone still clinging to some pointless hope about Brexit, seriously, you are flogging a horse that was dead before it left the stable.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Brexit in name only is the only deliverable Brexit - if you play it out. Boris wins a majority and goes full-tilt trying to get an EU trade deal. The UK needs that trade access to the EU. But the EU won't compromise the single market - give us free trade access with no strings, why would they? Bino is what we'll end up with.

If Bino is Brexit (which it would be) why bother!? This simple logic has been obvious for a few years now >
  • Hard Brexit with no free eu trade = terrible for the UK economy. Shooting ourselves in the foot.
  • Soft Brexit/ Bino = We get less control. Why bother?
  • Leavers are not able to make a case against this logic - unless they lie or promise impossibilities.
Brexit has been deeply flawed since its inception. Boris "getting Brexit done" is failing at a trade deal with the EU and delivering Bino. There are no other logical outcomes. The only way we get free trade with the US is to open up the NHS and food to US conglomerates, and we won't trade as much with the US and we do the EU anyway. As it takes a week or more for ship to/from the US. While smaller more agile lorries can currently go seamlessly from Europe-UK in a day.

Anyone still clinging to some pointless hope about Brexit, seriously, you are flogging a horse that was dead before it left the stable.
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it’s not just shooting ourselves in the foot, it’s shooting ourselves in the head after drinking a vial of poison, whilst we jump off a tall building into a den of hungry tigers
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
At the same time, do you not think the Lib Dems will take a fair chunk of the Labour remain vote?

And Im pretty sure BP picked up Labour leave votes as well (anyone but Tory, obviously), though that was the Euro elections and so perhaps not indicative.
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Some but I think a lot of them will vote democratically, I actually think the Lib Dems might fall away a bit over the campaign if the topics start covering anything more than Brexit. They don't really have much to offer and Swinson is so wooden. Say what you like about Corbyn but I admire quite a few of his policies (hate many of them) so I think people will fall back to voting for the 2 main parties.
 
P.D. said:
The Brexit party standing candidates everywhere will see Labour and the Lib Dems hoovering up a lot of seats, we've already seen 2 by-elections this year where that exact scenario happened. I'm sure there will be some back door agreement somewhere.
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I hope you're right, because this is what I'm concerned about. Would be suicidal (or at least, hugely risky) for both the tories and the BP not to come to some kind of accomodation.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
At the same time, do you not think the Lib Dems will take a fair chunk of the Labour remain vote?

And Im pretty sure BP picked up Labour leave votes as well (anyone but Tory, obviously), though that was the Euro elections and so perhaps not indicative.
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The trouble with the BP is that I suspect their performance will mirror UKIP's in 2015 - they'll get masses of votes (possibly millions), but they won't translate into seats, thereby proving a mostly destructive exercise from the leave point of view.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
At the same time, do you not think the Lib Dems will take a fair chunk of the Labour remain vote?

And Im pretty sure BP picked up Labour leave votes as well (anyone but Tory, obviously), though that was the Euro elections and so perhaps not indicative.
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Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.
 
monkeybarry said:
Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.
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Best case scenario really.
 
monkeybarry said:
Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.
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The tories would be wise to play up the prospect of this outcome. It certainly helped them in 2015.
 
monkeybarry said:
Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.
Click to expand...

Or, Boris wins a majority. Current polling suggests he might? He spends until the summer trying to get a FTA with the EU, but they will not give no-strings-attached trade. THe EU members will protect the single market - why wouldn't they? So a compromise is us still paying the EU, still observing the EU court on standards for goods going into the EU, still signed up to treaties stopping the UK being some kind of low regulation low tax heaven, that will undermine the EU. Why would the EU let us undercut them, to then sell into their market? The idea is balmy.

The commons won't back a trade deal with the US that sells out food standards or the NHS, and the loss of trade with the EU will hurt. Jobs. UK prosperity. This will push Boris into Bino. Where we follow the rules but have no seat at the table.

I prefer your scenario.
 
monkeybarry said:
Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.
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People won't forget democracy being overturned so easily
 
SpurMeUp said:
Or, Boris wins a majority. Current polling suggests he might? He spends until the summer trying to get a FTA with the EU, but they will not give no-strings-attached trade. THe EU members will protect the single market - why wouldn't they? So a compromise is us still paying the EU, still observing the EU court on standards for goods going into the EU, still signed up to treaties stopping the UK being some kind of low regulation low tax heaven, that will undermine the EU. Why would the EU let us undercut them, to then sell into their market? The idea is balmy.

The commons won't back a trade deal with the US that sells out food standards or the NHS, and the loss of trade with the EU will hurt. Jobs. UK prosperity. This will push Boris into Bino. Where we follow the rules but have no seat at the table.

I prefer your scenario.
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Or this country does the first good thing it's done in 40 years and becomes a grown-up, agile and democratic nation again
 
Gutter Boy said:
Or this country does the first good thing it's done in 40 years and becomes a grown-up, agile and democratic nation again
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How so? I see the opposite at the moment.

Grown up - proroguing parliament, bickering, threatening MPs. Brexit has been a backward step. The UK used to be respected as 'grown up', stable and logical. The world over we were seen as a safe pair of hands. At the moment, we're a laughing stock. Because of Brexit we're percieved as the opposite of "grown-up".

Agile - our government have been in lockdown, unable to deal with the most basic of business. Brexit has brought about the opposite of agility in UK government.

Democratic - since the vote polls show there is a majority of people who wish to stay part of the worlds largest trading block the EU. That makes brexit undemocratic as we stand here today.
 
In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.
 
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