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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
The original vote was 35.5m people
Show me an opinion pole that is more than just a few thousand people and we can talk about undemocratic.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Well now that you asked, I think you have to try and look at it from what's best for the UK/or what the UK voted for versus what is good for the Tories. These are not one and the same and your post alludes to that also. The only good state-crafting I've seen Boris do is to conflate these somewhat disparate agendas to the point that they seem the same.
If you can step back and look at it in somewhat neutral terms then one thing appears obvious to me. NI is not the real problem as there is an elegant solution to this already. Just give them a NI only backstop already agreed, which frankly they all want anyway, and that issue is boxed off. That is the best for the UK way of looking at it, but the Tories have chosen this as their battleground for purely party reasons. I think they could easily spin this solution as a win if they wanted to.
As you say the DUP are a big impediment, and have been making arguments in bad faith (no pun intended) all along. They spent 2+ years saying no border in the Irish sea and low and behold, now they think it is fine because the new proposal gives them the power to veto the fudge out of everything. The DUP just want power for their own ends. Will the Tories ditch them? Unlikely as you say as they need the numbers, so on we go with the party politics rather than trying to actually negotiate a solution.
And just to correct your people voted for no deal too - they didn't. That came later. Anyway that's enough from me on this brick.
How can you have different tax and customs arrangements within the same country? Will everyone on the Holyhead-Belfast ferry have their cars inspected looking for extra fuel tanks, smuggling in cheap British petrol. Will everything you post to Coleraine that costs more than £17 be subject to the EU's external tariff?
The NI only backstop actually only worked if Britain also didn't diverge at all from anything re the SM and CU (which was May's intentions). So the NI-only and whole UK backstops were effectively the same thing.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
If it was just one opinion poll fair play, its hard to extrapolate. But all of them? Come on.
On top of that you have a third of the UK who didn't vote. People who have a government who are supposed to represent them. Do the best for them. As Leave seems to offer so little, but seem to cost the UK so much in economic terms, the government should be protecting these people too.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
A poll of a thousand people at a time which is the equivalent of exit poles that are often wrong I will not take them over an official vote when people got off their back sides, went to the polling station and put their money where their mouth is.
So if the next general election is close with a 68% turnout does this give the losing voters the right to go to the streets and ask for a revote?
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Rorschach
Sonny Walters
No it isn't.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Fair enough. Point taken. Opinion polls are often wrong, but to have them all consistently point to one thing does make you think. Does suggest that a small majority don't want brexit. And why would they? There is nothing positive to point to. Nothing good on the horizon from it. Only negatives. I don't want you to be poorer. I don't want there to be less money for schools etc. Brexit offers zilch and costs plenty. That is the reality. We can do the experiment and find this out over 10 years or understand the detail now, and save the UK the time, cost and pain.
There is no brexit vision. There is no brexit payoff. Just more and more of this flimflam. If the UK leaves, we still have years of trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU, and the 70+ other countries that we have trade deals with now via the EU. Immigration, the big selling point of brexit has been swept under the carpet. And we're just left with the fallout. What is there to back or get behind - in real terms not rhetoric?
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
I said right from the outset that there should have been two rounds of voting. One, do you want out and then two, proposing a model that is preferred should the first vote call for Brexit. Silly clams couldn't work that out could they? Johnson and co are playing games about a deal, they couldn't give a fudge about the implications of a hard Brexit because they are all covered. The tossers are simply running down the clock.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
What are the advantages to Britain of leaving again? I can't seem to recall any, apart from that bogus NHS line.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Maybe there should have been HOWEVER high profile politicians on all sides of the fence released videos and PR saying this is the vote, one vote the only vote and to think about the next X amount of years, you can find the online from Corbyn and everyone else who are now trying to block the move. If I was a remainer I would be more effed off at the remains politicians who didn't do enough to represent you
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
No, no, for the Remainer MPs it was "you're vote will be final and we will act upon it - only if you choose the right answer as per how the EU rolls matey".
For reference, the PM himself at the time David Cameron said the result of the vote would be final...
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Does any of that matter if what was promised is not deliverable? I mean I agree with you, promises were broken. They are being broken daily. Boris said he'd never put a border down the Irish sea, but yesterday changed that. Farage said he wanted a Norway-like Brexit, but now wants no deal. It is all make it up as you go along. Because the underlying problem is: brexit that is good for the UK is proving nigh on impossible to deliver. With that in mind, do you hark back to some rhetoric/lies from some smug politician, or try to move forward and do the best for the UK from where we are now, knowing what we know now?
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
Er actually that was fat Eck about indyref. You know that one don't you, the one that democratically won with a clear margin with the highest turn out in any Scottish vote but you keep claiming that the Scottish people should be "given" independence.
Or is it only a second vote for ones in which you don't get your way?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I think Scotland should be independent again, but I don't support a referendum now. Maybe in 15-20 years. And I think it makes sense to start planning now for that eventuality (moving nuclear bases, separating wind farm electric grids etc)
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
I'm not for independence ( you might have guessed that), but I not totally against it per se.what I am against is the SNP and their trust us everything will be fine because we're not English clammery.
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
That doesn't strike me as particularly respectful of the 2014 referendum result.
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monkeybarry
Jack Jull
It does actually, yes.
That's the nature of democracy, if things change or are heading in a direction you don't like, you raise your collective voice.
Democracy is not a one time event, it's a constant consultation.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
To a timetable society agrees on - general elections roughly every 5 years, referendums roughly every 30 years.