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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Grays_1890 said:
Maybe being thick why would pro EU parties do that?
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The Greens were anti EU until 2017. Fundamentally it's completely at odds with their localism and anti-consumerism principles

The hostile sentiment is still found in their manifesto: https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html. So still opposed to centralisation, the euro, the ecj, the single market, state aid and competition laws, tax harmonisation. Basically everything
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Seems clever opportunism.

When the main parties split set your post and pick up the remainers?
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Just poor recent leaders who are more Lib Dems than Greens.

They don't even seem able to grasp de growth or post capitalism, let alone be capable of communicating it
 
Gutter Boy said:
The Greens were anti EU until 2017. Fundamentally it's completely at odds with their localism and anti-consumerism principles

The hostile sentiment is still found in their manifesto: https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html. So still opposed to centralisation, the euro, the ecj, the single market, state aid and competition laws, tax harmonisation. Basically everything
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Yep they changed their minds as it was stupid.

You have your heart in the right place but your conclusions are wrong. They don't line up with consensus environmental thinking because that has evolved in recent years. Cooperation on a global scale is our last punt. Not isolationism and allotments.
 
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Grays_1890 said:
The things you forget, murkey game ey...how can you trust a party that does that then changes to its current stance? People wonder then how people like Farage get leverage
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They're aiming at Remainders - a groups that has shown a complete disregard for any form of democracy that doesn't result in their side winning.

I don't think democratic treachery will do them any harm
 
demand-barmier-540.jpg
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
The EU has no intent on reform, quite the opposite IMO. They are doubling down on the project, do not forget the mantra of "ever closer union", nor the clear bully boy tactics they employ. Youre either on board with it, or tough brick, its happening anyway.





Thats because there is no such thing. Northern Europeans couldnt be more different to Southern, just as East and Western Europeans are entirely different.

Europe is a wonderfully varied place, both culturally as well as physically, geographically and ethnically.

Which is why the EUs insistence on one size fits all policy and apparent aim of homogenizing the entire continent just cannot work.

As a trading block its an entirely sensible endeavour. As a single political union, an over arching legislature managing states therein, I just dont see the point.
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Completely agree with this, if it stayed as more of a trading block it was and would continue to be a great idea which would have near unanimous support, it's all the extra things that annoy people.
 
P.D. said:
Completely agree with this, if it stayed as more of a trading block it was and would continue to be a great idea which would have near unanimous support, it's all the extra things that annoy people.
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What elements of the non-trading part of the EU annoy you? FoM I'm guessing? Anything else?
 
P.D. said:
Completely agree with this, if it stayed as more of a trading block it was and would continue to be a great idea which would have near unanimous support, it's all the extra things that annoy people.
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Which also seem, to me at least, rather unnecessary. If we stripped out the Empire building and got back to simple trading I think everyone would be better off.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What exactly does that mean, in conrete terms? Not a fear of somethign, or rhetoric, but actual stuff.
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The two immediate and obvious ones are being unable to compete with other EU nations on our own terms and being unable to trade with RoW on our own terms.

That's the difference between free trade (good) and socialist protectionism (bad).
 
scaramanga said:
The two immediate and obvious ones are being unable to compete with other EU nations on our own terms and being unable to trade with RoW on our own terms.

That's the difference between free trade (good) and socialist protectionism (bad).
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Nayim and P.D.'s points were people were annoyed with things other than trade. If the EU was only a trade block they'd be happy; infering the current trade setup is fine. And it is. If you break down what you say, I am not sure your points actually add up.

"being unable to compete with other EU nations on our own terms"
  • We have free trade with the EU now. Its fair.
  • Outside the EU we won't be able to dictate terms, if anything we'll get worse terms and less say in how we trade with the 27 EU nations.

"being unable to trade with RoW on our own terms"
  • Our 'own terms' my well be worse for some things than the EU gets. The weight of 500m consumers vs our 55m means the EU should be able to get better trade terms. On the flip side we would be able to be more agile and bespoke.

Free trade (good) occurs in the EU, leaving it - bad for free trade. Which makes you a socialist! :eek:
 
SpurMeUp said:
Nayim and P.D.'s points were people were annoyed with things other than trade. If the EU was only a trade block they'd be happy; infering the current trade setup is fine. And it is. If you break down what you say, I am not sure your points actually add up.

"being unable to compete with other EU nations on our own terms"
  • We have free trade with the EU now. Its fair.
  • Outside the EU we won't be able to dictate terms, if anything we'll get worse terms and less say in how we trade with the 27 EU nations.

"being unable to trade with RoW on our own terms"
  • Our 'own terms' my well be worse for some things than the EU gets. The weight of 500m consumers vs our 55m means the EU should be able to get better trade terms. On the flip side we would be able to be more agile and bespoke.

Free trade (good) occurs in the EU, leaving it - bad for free trade. Which makes you a socialist! :eek:
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That's not what free trade is. Internal trade only, under heavily restrictive covenants is not free.

Let me give you an example;

If I run a business in Caracas and I want to do business with someone in Maracaibo, I can do with no tariffs or borders. If I want to trade with someone in New York, I cannot. If I want to run my business only to sell to those in Caracas, I still have to abide by the rules of those in Maracaibo.

That isn't free trade, that's a communist state. The EU works in the same way. We can trade within the EU, but have to apply the EU's rules to everything we do - even for all the products we don't export. We can trade all we like as long as we only trade with those the EU tells us to and only in the manner they tell us to.
 
scaramanga said:
That's not what free trade is. Internal trade only, under heavily restrictive covenants is not free.

Let me give you an example;

If I run a business in Caracas and I want to do business with someone in Maracaibo, I can do with no tariffs or borders. If I want to trade with someone in New York, I cannot. If I want to run my business only to sell to those in Caracas, I still have to abide by the rules of those in Maracaibo.

That isn't free trade, that's a communist state. The EU works in the same way. We can trade within the EU, but have to apply the EU's rules to everything we do - even for all the products we don't export. We can trade all we like as long as we only trade with those the EU tells us to and only in the manner they tell us to.
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So are you saying if a Caracas based company wanted to buy, for argument's sake, widgets which are made by Company X based in the UK and Company Y based in Germany those 2 companies couldn't competitively bid against each other for the job? That's not right.
 
Robspur12 said:
So are you saying if a Caracas based company wanted to buy, for argument's sake, widgets which are made by Company X based in the UK and Company Y based in Germany those 2 companies couldn't competitively bid against each other for the job? That's not right.
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You've misread the analogy.

Caracas is the UK, Venezuela is the EU.
 
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