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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Gutter Boy said:
Its all natural resources. Currently our consumption level needs 1.5 earths to support it. If everyone gets to Western levels of lifestyle, we'd need 7 earths
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Is this because western levels are still rising or because other parts if the world are catching up?

Not that it matters either way. I was just wondering.
 
dingdongo said:
Is this because western levels are still rising or because other parts if the world are catching up?

Not that it matters either way. I was just wondering.
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I think both are happening, but the latter is most significant.

The 7 earths is based just on the rest of the world reaching current western level. If the west goes up more too, that's even more than 7
 
glasgowspur said:
Which they won't win.
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I don't think there will be a referendum. Not under this government. Corbyn might do a deal to get into power if the 2022 GE is hung again. But the Conservatives will just deny it as illegitimate (i.e. there is no evidence yet to change the 2015 one being 'for a generation') in the meantime
 
dingdongo said:
Is this because western levels are still rising or because other parts if the world are catching up?

Not that it matters either way. I was just wondering.
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I should probably be putting this in the unpopular opinions thread but one of (and in some cases THE) biggest causes of global warming/climate change, population displacement, pulverisation of resources and general brickhousery towards the planet is the animal agriculture industry. But you know.....bacon tho.
 
AuroRaman said:
I should probably be putting this in the unpopular opinions thread but one of (and in some cases THE) biggest causes of global warming/climate change, population displacement, pulverisation of resources and general brickhousery towards the planet is the animal agriculture industry. But you know.....bacon tho.
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That's only 9%. Small fry. The same with aviation, which gets a lot of press, but is only something like 2% IIRC.

The biggies are domestic boilers (something like 40%) and power stations (again something like 40%). Change all heating and hot water to electric (already happening in all new builds) and build 3 or 4 times the amount of wind farms and solar we currently have, and pollution suddenly falls to just 20% of current levels. When electric cars that work as well as petrol come along, that's almost leaving us with just the cow fart 9%. Brave governments not in corporate pockets can solve the problem in a decade. Uruguay already have: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy
 
Gutter Boy said:
I don't think there will be a referendum. Not under this government. Corbyn might do a deal to get into power if the 2022 GE is hung again. But the Conservatives will just deny it as illegitimate (i.e. there is no evidence yet to change the 2015 one being 'for a generation') in the meantime
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Which unfortunately plays into the SNPs hands. Evil English denying us our freedom rubbish.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's only 9%. Small fry. The same with aviation, which gets a lot of press, but is only something like 2% IIRC.

The biggies are domestic boilers (something like 40%) and power stations (again something like 40%). Change all heating and hot water to electric (already happening in all new builds) and build 3 or 4 times the amount of wind farms and solar we currently have, and pollution suddenly falls to just 20% of current levels. When electric cars that work as well as petrol come along, that's almost leaving us with just the cow fart 9%. Brave governments not in corporate pockets can solve the problem in a decade. Uruguay already have: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy
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Where have you got that 9% figure from?

Edit: Also what is that figure based on? Energy consumption? Sorry may have misread your initial post, mine was based as a collective.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's only 9%. Small fry. The same with aviation, which gets a lot of press, but is only something like 2% IIRC.

The biggies are domestic boilers (something like 40%) and power stations (again something like 40%). Change all heating and hot water to electric (already happening in all new builds) and build 3 or 4 times the amount of wind farms and solar we currently have, and pollution suddenly falls to just 20% of current levels. When electric cars that work as well as petrol come along, that's almost leaving us with just the cow fart 9%. Brave governments not in corporate pockets can solve the problem in a decade. Uruguay already have: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy
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Battery tech is the big hurdle for this.(storage)

And batteries are filthy when there are millions to get rid of.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I don't think there will be a referendum. Not under this government. Corbyn might do a deal to get into power if the 2022 GE is hung again. But the Conservatives will just deny it as illegitimate (i.e. there is no evidence yet to change the 2015 one being 'for a generation') in the meantime
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I don't doubt he would, but I don't think it would go down well with Labour voters. The prospect of a Labour/SNP coalition had a hand in Cameron getting his majority in 2015, didn't it?
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's only 9%. Small fry. The same with aviation, which gets a lot of press, but is only something like 2% IIRC.

The biggies are domestic boilers (something like 40%) and power stations (again something like 40%). Change all heating and hot water to electric (already happening in all new builds) and build 3 or 4 times the amount of wind farms and solar we currently have, and pollution suddenly falls to just 20% of current levels. When electric cars that work as well as petrol come along, that's almost leaving us with just the cow fart 9%. Brave governments not in corporate pockets can solve the problem in a decade. Uruguay already have: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy
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And why is the average person going to switch off their regular boiler, convert their whole house to electricity which in itself would cost a fortune to do. Then you have to factor in that electricity is 3 times the price off gas and electric radiators take a lot longer to warm up.

Not saying you're wrong but I don't see the switch happening anytime soon, large parts of the population already struggle with the costs of their utility bills.

Why not switch to biomass boilers instead?
 
P.D. said:
And why is the average person going to switch off their regular boiler, convert their whole house to electricity which in itself would cost a fortune to do. Then you have to factor in that electricity is 3 times the price off gas and electric radiators take a lot longer to warm up.

Not saying you're wrong but I don't see the switch happening anytime soon, large parts of the population already struggle with the costs of their utility bills.

Why not switch to biomass boilers instead?
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It will have to be a big government-organised initiative. The gas phase out, like we had the coal phase out.

If gas boilers are very shortly going to be banned from new houses, soon replacements in old houses will follow. You then get the situation that manufacturers and maintenance people move on, and everything left becomes legacy relics. It will be like trying to buy a 100W lightbulb now

It might not be electric radiators, more airflow systems like you get in office buildings

It probably needs to coincide with a move to local generation and storage - i.e. all houses (except heritage areas) with solar panels and battery storage in garage or lofts (that's going to be needed for car charging anyway)

Biomass is still a greenhouse gas, so part of the problem
 
P.D. said:
And why is the average person going to switch off their regular boiler, convert their whole house to electricity which in itself would cost a fortune to do. Then you have to factor in that electricity is 3 times the price off gas and electric radiators take a lot longer to warm up.

Not saying you're wrong but I don't see the switch happening anytime soon, large parts of the population already struggle with the costs of their utility bills.

Why not switch to biomass boilers instead?
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As you say, using direct-acting electric heaters for space heating and say immersions for hot water heating is too expensive. New gas or oil boilers have a seasonal efficiency north of 90% (which is superb I might add) but we have to move away from burning brick. Air source heat pumps are the way forward (or ground/water source if you have the land or water nearby). The efficiency of these babies is often over 300% which basically means you get more than 3 times the energy out than goes in. The problem is that they really are only effective in houses that are very well insulated/airtight and they are expensive. My opinion is that they should be mandatory in all new housing stock.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
That's only 9%. Small fry. The same with aviation, which gets a lot of press, but is only something like 2% IIRC.

The biggies are domestic boilers (something like 40%) and power stations (again something like 40%). Change all heating and hot water to electric (already happening in all new builds) and build 3 or 4 times the amount of wind farms and solar we currently have, and pollution suddenly falls to just 20% of current levels. When electric cars that work as well as petrol come along, that's almost leaving us with just the cow fart 9%. Brave governments not in corporate pockets can solve the problem in a decade. Uruguay already have: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy
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Those figures look well off to me. Can you quote a source for them?

Also, electric cars already work better than petrol ones, but that is another discussion. It is cow burps not farts.

Edit: sorry didn't read your follow up post. Yes, the 40% figure for boilers is well off.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
It's CO2/greenhouse gases. I remembered the figure, but it's in a few places I've just found e.g. the graphics for the UK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47121399 and US: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
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Thanks GB. As mentioned I was looking at the issue as a whole rather than specifically emissions.

However on that, the link you sent is just the US. Animal Agriculture accounts for a much larger percentage of all emissions (some studies have claimed up to 51% but I'm not sure this is the case). And then factor in land and water, electricity and fossil fuel usage, it is a huge problem, perhaps the biggest. Areas that have predominantly been more plant-based such as South and South-east Asia are now succumbing to the Western diet.

Also, much like the tobacco industry previously, the meat and dairy industry spends an obscene amount of money lobbying for studies and reviews to be done within the industry itself to distort the truth. They are also given the biggest subsidies alongside pharma. Hence the mass panic in the industry now as they are progressively losing profit due to the demand for plant-based products.

https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...-fuels-oil-pollution-iatp-grain-a8451871.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmc...he-climate-than-dirty-energy-steven-chu-says/

http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock and Climate Change.pdf

https://gelr.org/2015/10/23/a-leadi...ve-on-it-georgetown-environmental-law-review/
 
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