Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gilzeantoscore]

For fudge's sake, if you would cast a vote for Farage, you would also vote for Arthur Daley...same.....same.

 

[Gutter Boy]

For fudge's sake, if you would cast a vote for Farage, you would also vote for Arthur Daley...same.....same.

It's not a vote for farage though, it's a vote against conservative and labour subversion of brexit. He's a stick to beat them with, not an end in itself

 

[monkeybarry]

It's not a vote for farage though, it's a vote against conservative and labour subversion of brexit. He's a stick to beat them with, not an end in itself

Oh he is certainly an end

 

[Rorschach]

Don't vote for a bigot unless that is who you are. Vote for someone else or no one.

 

[parklane1]

It's not a vote for farage though, it's a vote against conservative and labour subversion of brexit. He's a stick to beat them with, not an end in itself

This, if the arseholes in Parliament had not been playing silly buggers over the Brexit votes then Farage would have been a distant memory.

 

[Gutter Boy]

A vote for Farage in the Euro Elections is only to signify that those voters want Brexit to happen. Other than that, there is no real consequence, the Euro elections are an irrelevence (particularly if we actually leave the EU).

I would hope that voters who aren't right-wing would not vote for him (or the Tories) in a General Election though.

Absolutely. I'm a Green Party member by day - this is a one off lend to help get brexit over the line. Then farage can crawl back into his hole

If Corbyn makes good on the green policies he's talking about adopting - green economy, renationalisation, 4 day week and UBI, I might even end there by 2022, despite my usual hostility to statist parties.

 

[Rorschach]

Absolutely. I'm a Green Party member by day - this is a one off lend to help get brexit over the line. Then farage can crawl back into his hole

If Corbyn makes good on the green policies he's talking about adopting - green economy, renationalisation, 4 day week and UBI, I might even end there by 2022, despite my usual hostility to statist parties.

The UK greens tag line for the European election is 'no to Brexit, yes to Europe'. While you might like certain green policies you do not align with the party's position on Europe.

As was pointed out, voting for Farage is nothing more than a symbolic gesture. Or in other words, there is no point except to give him relevance. That is a good enough reason not to vote for him IMO.

 

[SpurMeUp]

This, if the arseholes in Parliament had not been playing silly buggers over the Brexit votes then Farage would have been a distant memory.

When will people learn, Brexit itself is a myth. Promised by Farage and his right wing cronies but undeliverable without sacrifice. That Farage will not be around to deliver it, just make his £400,000+ a year for himself and have a jolly in the limelight, should tell you all you need to know.

A vote for Farage in the Euro Elections is only to signify that those voters want Brexit to happen. Other than that, there is no real consequence, the Euro elections are an irrelevence (particularly if we actually leave the EU).

I would hope that voters who aren't right-wing would not vote for him (or the Tories) in a General Election though.

The irony: this Euro election will be the most popular european election we have ever had. No one used to notice they were like by elections. Not any more. But there are real consquences this time. A vote for The Brexit party could have the effect of installing Boris as the UK PM. The Tory's see Boris as the only person who can nullify Farage. Boris (at the moment) supports No Deal. Backing The Brexit Circus could have massive implications for the UK, leading to a right wing hard exit from the EU with working people (and everyone) suffering.

Absolutely. I'm a Green Party member by day - this is a one off lend to help get brexit over the line. Then farage can crawl back into his hole

If Corbyn makes good on the green policies he's talking about adopting - green economy, renationalisation, 4 day week and UBI, I might even end there by 2022, despite my usual hostility to statist parties.

How can you possibly back a Conservative Brexit over an environmentally freindly EU? The only way to combat global warming is with global agreements and coordination. Will the 55m population UK have a better chance of doing that than the worlds largest market of 550m people working together in the EU?

 

[Gutter Boy]

The UK greens tag line for the European election is 'no to Brexit, yes to Europe'. While you might like certain green policies you do not align with the party's position on Europe.

As was pointed out, voting for Farage is nothing more than a symbolic gesture. Or in other words, there is no point except to give him relevance. That is a good enough reason not to vote for him IMO.

Only the position of the current leadership. The Green movement has always been anti-EU. Look what they we're proposing even as recently as 2015 (before it became cool):


Europe


The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.

Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy of subsidiarity.

We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.

So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an
additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year.

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/asset...015_General_Election_Manifesto_Searchable.pdf

 

[Gutter Boy]

How can you possibly back a Conservative Brexit over an environmentally freindly EU? The only way to combat global warming is with global agreements and coordination. Will the 55m population UK have a better chance of doing that than the worlds largest market of 550m people working together in the EU?

The EU has a terrible record on environmentalism. Most recently the diesel scandal. It's fine at all the tokenist nonsense. But its primary purpose is to protect the interests of big business, which is fundamentally opposed to localism and sustainability.

We can't ban the sale of new carbon cars, because of EU anti-competition laws. We can't ban the production and import of virgin plastic, because of EU anti-competition laws.

The EU is the primary agent of the neo-liberal ancien regime. It is the system. To achieve anything towards a green future, it needs to be toppled.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The EU has a terrible record on environmentalism. Most recently the diesel scandal. It's fine at all the tokenist nonsense. But its primary purpose is to protect the interests of big business, which is fundamentally opposed to localism and sustainability.

We can't ban the sale of new carbon cars, because of EU anti-competition laws. We can't ban the production and import of virgin plastic, because of EU anti-competition laws.

The EU is the primary agent of the neo-liberal ancien regime. It is the system. To achieve anything towards a green future, it needs to be toppled.

Will the UK, by itself, address global warming?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Rorschach]

Only the position of the current leadership. The Green movement has always been anti-EU. Look what they we're proposing even as recently as 2015 (before it became cool):


Europe


The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.

Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy of subsidiarity.

We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.

So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an
additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year.

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/asset...015_General_Election_Manifesto_Searchable.pdf

It is the position of current and future leadership. The policy position from 4 years ago has evolved in light of the problems that we are facing and rightly so. Isolationsim is the wrong course to take at this juncture as the scale of the issue is just too great. And self sufficiency does not run counter to this broader position and to argue otherwise is simply because you want brexit. Read the current manifesto rather than a old one.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Will the UK, by itself, address global warming?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We could. If we set a precedent. Ban imports of the worst polluters - carbon cars, virgin plastic, energy from non-renewables etc. As the 5th largest economy in the world, corporates (domestic and overseas) that wanted to access our markets would have to up their game and offer green alternatives. We could become an internationally powerful version of Uruguay. The less progressive first world countries would then be shamed by their citizens into following us.

 

[r-u-s-x]

The EU has a terrible record on environmentalism. Most recently the diesel scandal. It's fine at all the tokenist nonsense. But its primary purpose is to protect the interests of big business, which is fundamentally opposed to localism and sustainability.

We can't ban the sale of new carbon cars, because of EU anti-competition laws. We can't ban the production and import of virgin plastic, because of EU anti-competition laws.

The EU is the primary agent of the neo-liberal ancien regime. It is the system. To achieve anything towards a green future, it needs to be toppled.

They may have "a terrible record" but they have dragged the UK along with improving the environment. Our governments have always been short termist and environmentgoals are long term. Its only punishment from EU agreements we signed up for that improved the quality of our beaches / rivers and is meaning we are trying to improve air quality.

Left to our own devices we fudge off environmental improvements for a quick buck. We are so far behind comparable nations in the EU with our recycling etc to think we would be better outside of the EU is niaeve - The UK as a country is more interested in protecting big business than the EU is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_rates_by_country

 

[Gutter Boy]

It is the position of current and future leadership. The policy position from 4 years ago has evolved in light of the problems that we are facing and rightly so. Isolationsim is the wrong course to take at this juncture as the scale of the issue is just too great. And self sufficiency does not run counter to this broader position and to argue otherwise is simply because you want brexit. Read the current manifesto rather than a old one.

It's not isolation. It's localism and sustainability. It's socially open, but an economic moving beyond extreme consumerism. You can't fight against global supply chains in an organisation designed to extend and protect global supply chains

The current green leadership are a bit itchy because of the new association between Europhobes and the right. They would be better setting out, in a way Corbyn is too nervous to publically do, the left version of leave. Jenny Jones (Leader of the Greens in the House of Lords) is the one person who is really good on this.

 

[Gutter Boy]

They may have "a terrible record" but they have dragged the UK along with improving the environment. Our governments have always been short termist and environmentgoals are long term. Its only punishment from EU agreements we signed up for that improved the quality of our beaches / rivers and is meaning we are trying to improve air quality.

Left to our own devices we fudge off environmental improvements for a quick buck. We are so far behind comparable nations in the EU with our recycling etc to think we would be better outside of the EU is niaeve - The UK as a country is more interested in protecting big business than the EU is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_rates_by_country

Recycling is tokenism. The solution is not to allow the production of the stuff in the first place. But again, that's contrary to the EU's fundamental neo-liberalism

 

[SpurMeUp]

Recycling is tokenism. The solution is not to allow the production of the stuff in the first place. But again, that's contrary to the EU's fundamental neo-liberalism

So the EU favours free trade and does more for the environment than the UK. Your point that the UK with such a tiny population could dictate environmental norms to the rest of the world - without something like the EU onside - is laughable.

 

[SpurMeUp]

 

[Trixster]

We could. If we set a precedent. Ban imports of the worst polluters - carbon cars, virgin plastic, energy from non-renewables etc. As the 5th largest economy in the world, corporates (domestic and overseas) that wanted to access our markets would have to up their game and offer green alternatives. We could become an internationally powerful version of Uruguay. The less progressive first world countries would then be shamed by their citizens into following us.

And the likes of America, China for example of being some of the biggest polluters would simply just laugh at us and ply their trade with everyone else.
Same scenario with 27 other countries at our side however and they may be made to think twice about it and do something about their tinkle poor statistics.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Recycling is tokenism. The solution is not to allow the production of the stuff in the first place. But again, that's contrary to the EU's fundamental neo-liberalism

Its not Tokenism in this case its an indication (one of many) that shows we lag Europe on green issues rather than being held back. See also land fill and renewable energy. To say we are held back from being more green by the EU is false.

We may be held back from carrying out your suggested solution (localism / de-growth etc.) but this is not what the UK would be doing outside the EU.