Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

The UK political system played into his hands though, offered up the referendum (he didn't) and then did not listen to people when they voiced their concerns, which I keep repeating is one of the biggest mistakes political parties have made globally in the last couple of years and paid the price including the US elections where deplorable was the word used that effective handed Trump the title.

I have a marginally different perspective. It's that 'listening to the people' is actually people wanting politics to refresh. To offer something modern, new, which isn't the same old same old. If that is 'not listening' then I agree. Otherwise, what is it politicians are not listening to? What are peoples concerns?

So much of Brexit is abstract sound bites "listening to the will of the people" is one. "take back control" another, ignoring democracy the latest - all powerful sound bites which upon scrunity don't hold together too well. What do they actually mean? What is it people want, in a postive sense? None of Farage's underlying logic adds up or makes sense, only the sound bites work becaue they are emotive and people are not going into any of the detail.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I thought this was intresting, some of you might too. Lefty Media interview with a Brexit Party candidate. Some good debate between them imo:

What is striking is that not once does Claire Fox outline any vision for Brexit. Like the right wingers the narrative is all about 'how people have been let down'. A kind of rage against the establishment. In that sense it suits her and in that she is united with Farage. She used to want revolution to change the establishment and replace it with communism. Supporting Brexit is just a misguided way to reinvent those previous ideals but with a 'safe' off shore EU being the establishment. As she has matured she's understood that communist principles are not viable - that you need private enterprise. So her revolt against the establishment has been directed elsewhere. Yet there is no vision form her. And she is jumping into bed with someone who has a toally different slant on Brexit outcomes for the UK. Amazing how people will shelve ethics and ideology for a bit of limelight.

You might ask who has let the people down most? Those who made fale promises about Brexit - that it'd be easy, with no effect on the economy, and it would address immigration - or politicians who can not deliver an impossible promise?

 

[Grays_1890]

I have a marginally different perspective. It's that 'listening to the people' is actually people wanting politics to refresh. To offer something modern, new, which isn't the same old same old. If that is 'not listening' then I agree. Otherwise, what is it politicians are not listening to? What are peoples concerns?

I think its both, our world evolves daily, the way we see information changes daily, the level of information we receive increases and yet one of the only things to stand still is our political system which is the same as it was years and years ago.

On your second point there have been years and years of forgotten areas of the UK who for years raised concerns on the state of the farming/fishing system (just as an example) and the lack of opportunities only to be ignored, Brexit was the rebel vote for them people. Same in the US, the lack of opportunities in areas where previous trade had been lost were forgotten and not listened too. And then people complain when Farage and Trump come in and go to them "you have been forgotten, I will make things better". Its a fact of life and proven in the way people vote and continue to vote.

Now I am not getting into the Brexit argument again but the sign of intent on voting for the Brexit party shows this is not ending.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think its both, our world evolves daily, the way we see information changes daily, the level of information we receive increases and yet one of the only things to stand still is our political system which is the same as it was years and years ago.

On your second point there have been years and years of forgotten areas of the UK who for years raised concerns on the state of the farming/fishing system (just as an example) and the lack of opportunities only to be ignored, Brexit was the rebel vote for them people. Same in the US, the lack of opportunities in areas where previous trade had been lost were forgotten and not listened too. And then people complain when Farage and Trump come in and go to them "you have been forgotten, I will make things better". Its a fact of life and proven in the way people vote and continue to vote.

Now I am not getting into the Brexit argument again but the sign of intent on voting for the Brexit party shows this is not ending.

Okay, so when the Brexit party says people are not being listen to, it is that MPs are not listening to fisherman and farmers. What is it that fisherman and farmers want!?

Lack of oppotunities is more interesting. In one way you could say people have never had more oppotunity. Maybe there has been a very small fall back as the previously industrial north has not had fresh jobs. And education programmes that work for deprived areas is needed. But there always have been this needed to develop education for those who miss out. The irony is that if the Brexit party get their way, places like Sunderland will loose thousands of jobs as car firms are forced to move into the EU. With no trade deal exports of cars to the EU would carry 10% extra and getting components into the country would be impossible.

Is there anything new in politicians making false unrealistic promises, or even using race and immigration to get cheap votes?

 

[Grays_1890]

Okay, so when the Brexit party says people are not being listen to, it is that MPs are not listening to fisherman and farmers. What is it that fisherman and farmers want!?

Lack of oppotunities is more interesting. In one way you could say people have never had more oppotunity. Maybe there has been a very small fall back as the previously industrial north has not had fresh jobs. And education programmes that work for deprived areas is needed. But there always have been this needed to develop education for those who miss out. The irony is that if the Brexit party get their way, places like Sunderland will loose thousands of jobs as car firms are forced to move into the EU. With no trade deal exports of cars to the EU would carry 10% extra and getting components into the country would be impossible.

Is there anything new in politicians making false unrealistic promises, or even using race and immigration to get cheap votes?

I don't talk on behalf of the fishermen or the farmers, you would have to ask them and as I said it was an example.

Regardless of how you paint it, you can pigeon hole it into whatever you like but there is a huge lack of engagement factor here linked to way people have voted and the campaigns were totally misguided when they put rich elite's on film to talk AT people and tell them which way to vote. If you think remain did a good job of engaging with the public then you are silly and people will never learn from their mistakes. As continues to be proven.

If you don't engage and you talk at people you allow Farage to slip in the back door.

It might seem like simple politics but thats what it is.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't talk on behalf of the fishermen or the farmers, you would have to ask them and as I said it was an example.

Regardless of how you paint it, you can pigeon hole it into whatever you like but there is a huge lack of engagement factor here linked to way people have voted and the campaigns were totally misguided when they put rich elite's on film to talk AT people and tell them which way to vote. If you think remain did a good job of engaging with the public then you are silly and people will never learn from their mistakes. As continues to be proven.

If you don't engage and you talk at people you allow Farage to slip in the back door.

It might seem like simple politics but thats what it is.

If you can't outline what fisherman and farmers want you can not say its an example of 'people not being listen to'.

'Remain doing a good job' = putting words into my mouth. Neither side did a good job in the referendum. Leave did a highly effective job. They played the game. But made promises that are not being delivered. And now they are blaming others for that - as of course you would. "Brexit would have been easy if it wasn't for May" No it wouldn't. Anyone who makes such misguided statements (like Farage) is on the make. They are not considering reality. They are out to mopp up the dissatisfied for their own personal aggrandisement regarless of reality.

Let me offer another of Farage's contradictions: during the campain I remember him saying he thought Norway might be a good model for the UK to follow post vote if we left (this was on Newnight, but he's said many other things too like Switzerland is a model we could follow). Now...Norwary option is his enemy, he has castigated May for proposing something which is a harder form of exit than Norway or Switerland have. Again, this tells us that what he stands for is b0llocks. He has no vision. It is not far short of a con trick to suck up power and money, filling a vacuum he is partly responsible for creating.

And the hypocrisies continue: how did he meet his German wife, and start a family with her? By using freedom of movement. Something he will deny future generations. What passports did his kids by this lady chose to hold? German, so they can live and work freely in the EU if they so choose. Again something that will be denied to our kids unless we have european lineage too.

Yet, despite all this, I quite like Farrage. I like revolution. I like people shaking things up. But his is a false dawn. A false promise. And there is no substance. Just a let down and division to those that think he offers something.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I have a marginally different perspective. It's that 'listening to the people' is actually people wanting politics to refresh. To offer something modern, new, which isn't the same old same old. If that is 'not listening' then I agree. Otherwise, what is it politicians are not listening to? What are peoples concerns?

So much of Brexit is abstract sound bites "listening to the will of the people" is one. "take back control" another, ignoring democracy the latest - all powerful sound bites which upon scrunity don't hold together too well. What do they actually mean? What is it people want, in a postive sense? None of Farage's underlying logic adds up or makes sense, only the sound bites work becaue they are emotive and people are not going into any of the detail.

I'd say a pull back from neo-liberal globalisation. Decisions being taken for the benefit of society, not the 1% who control the economy.

Brexit crosses both right and left because it is about reducing corporate power, curtailing economic migration and more focus on environmentalism - things that unite the working classes and shire England against neo-liberal London

 

[Gutter Boy]

Okay, so when the Brexit party says people are not being listen to, it is that MPs are not listening to fisherman and farmers. What is it that fisherman and farmers want!?

Lack of oppotunities is more interesting. In one way you could say people have never had more oppotunity. Maybe there has been a very small fall back as the previously industrial north has not had fresh jobs. And education programmes that work for deprived areas is needed. But there always have been this needed to develop education for those who miss out. The irony is that if the Brexit party get their way, places like Sunderland will loose thousands of jobs as car firms are forced to move into the EU. With no trade deal exports of cars to the EU would carry 10% extra and getting components into the country would be impossible.

Is there anything new in politicians making false unrealistic promises, or even using race and immigration to get cheap votes?

The current state of the EU is Thatcher's great legacy. Every source of resistance to the machine of neo-liberalism has been smashed

Farmers and fisherman want protection to plan long term, where currently everything is consumed at in the quickest way for the maximum profit to the biggest global operators.

And the working class in the north and midlands don't want to work in Sports Direct warehouses or as uber drivers, they want secure and fulfilling employment that serves a purpose. They want the car industry like it was 1900-1973 (stable and high skilled), not like it has been since 1973 (flighty and low skilled)

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd say a pull back from neo-liberal globalisation. Decisions being taken for the benefit of society, not the 1% who control the economy.

Brexit crosses both right and left because it is about reducing corporate power, curtailing economic migration and more focus on environmentalism - things that unite the working classes and shire England against neo-liberal London

The leader of the Brexit party is a global warming denier. Farrage doesn't think we should do anything to cut emmissions. Which is consistent with being Russian funded. What decisions are you talking about? Brexit is right wing, there is a legacy of outdated Trots like Benn (who is dead) who were anti-EU - that was almost 50 years ago. Now, today, the EU represents the envronment, helping to control gloabl negative forces, putting in place rights for workers. You need to up your game and get with the times.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The current state of the EU is Thatcher's great legacy. Every source of resistance to the machine of neo-liberalism has been smashed

Farmers and fisherman want protection to plan long term, where currently everything is consumed at in the quickest way for the maximum profit to the biggest global operators.

And the working class in the north and midlands don't want to work in Sports Direct warehouses or as uber drivers, they want secure and fulfilling employment that serves a purpose. They want the car industry like it was 1900-1973 (stable and high skilled), not like it has been since 1973 (flighty and low skilled)

This is even more nonsense than you normally manage. The Common Agricultural policy (which needs refrom) is massive protection for farmers. Long term they are protected, even paid for fallow fields or fields given up to nature. What is the EU doing that would stop northern and middlands people securing fulfilling employment that serves a purpose? The EU gives money to invest in deprived areas. Our government is free to take action.

If they want any car industry at all, they want to remain in the EU. A car industry of the pre-70s!? That is a joke...

 

[Gutter Boy]

The leader of the Brexit party is a global warming denier. Farrage doesn't think we should do anything to cut emmissions. Which is consistent with being Russian funded. What decisions are you talking about? Brexit is right wing, there is a legacy of outdated Trots like Benn (who is dead) who were anti-EU - that was almost 50 years ago. Now, today, the EU represents the envronment, helping to control gloabl negative forces, putting in place rights for workers. You need to up your game and get with the times.

The Brexit party don't represent the leave movement. They are a single issue party for a single election. They will disappear as quickly as UKIP did when their purpose is served

A referendum to leave the EU was in every Green party manifesto up-to and including 2015.

And the diesel scandal was the perfect example of the EU prioritising the profits of VW, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Citron etc. over the health of its citizens. They insisted on CO2 only emissions tests, when all the science and the rest of the world was clear decades ago how harmful nitrogen dioxide and the other particulates were. And it was completely deliberate, because EU manufacturers were ahead on diesel, while the Americans and Japanese were ahead on petrol. The EU have blood on their hands over that

 

[Grays_1890]

If you can't outline what fisherman and farmers want you can not say its an example of 'people not being listen to'.

'Remain doing a good job' = putting words into my mouth. Neither side did a good job in the referendum. Leave did a highly effective job. They played the game. But made promises that are not being delivered. And now they are blaming others for that - as of course you would. "Brexit would have been easy if it wasn't for May" No it wouldn't. Anyone who makes such misguided statements (like Farage) is on the make. They are not considering reality. They are out to mopp up the dissatisfied for their own personal aggrandisement regarless of reality.

Let me offer another of Farage's contradictions: during the campain I remember him saying he thought Norway might be a good model for the UK to follow post vote if we left (this was on Newnight, but he's said many other things too like Switzerland is a model we could follow). Now...Norwary option is his enemy, he has castigated May for proposing something which is a harder form of exit than Norway or Switerland have. Again, this tells us that what he stands for is b0llocks. He has no vision. It is not far short of a con trick to suck up power and money, filling a vacuum he is partly responsible for creating.

And the hypocrisies continue: how did he meet his German wife, and start a family with her? By using freedom of movement. Something he will deny future generations. What passports did his kids by this lady chose to hold? German, so they can live and work freely in the EU if they so choose. Again something that will be denied to our kids unless we have european lineage too.

Yet, despite all this, I quite like Farrage. I like revolution. I like people shaking things up. But his is a false dawn. A false promise. And there is no substance. Just a let down and division to those that think he offers something.

And if you can't manage to beat Farage even based on all that is wrong with him, which I largely agree with, then you are doing some seriously wrong things.

Do you think main stream politicians from mainstream parties engage well enough with people? Do you think they are in touch with what is really going on in the country and can do so well enough to gain their support? Thats a genuine question, nothing tricky and if you can answer in less than 80 paragraphs would be good.

For me I think the past couple of years has proven that the two/three party system is flawed, the worlds moved on, people are influenced more easily with access to information regardless how poor that information is and politics has not moved with it.

I will always go back to the fact the remain party, as an example had someone living in LA with millions telling the UK to vote remain....regardless of what you think of Farage, thats poorly informed to do that

 

[parklane1]

On your second point there have been years and years of forgotten areas of the UK who for years raised concerns on the state of the farming/fishing system (just as an example) and the lack of opportunities only to be ignored, Brexit was the rebel vote for them people. Same in the US, the lack of opportunities in areas where previous trade had been lost were forgotten and not listened too. And then people complain when Farage and Trump come in and go to them "you have been forgotten, I will make things better". Its a fact of life and proven in the way people vote and continue to vote.

.

Spot on, i am still amazed that several years after both those events there are still some who have buried their heads into the sand so deep they can not see the reality of why it happened.

 

[Grays_1890]

Spot on, i am still amazed that several years after both those events there are still some who have buried their heads into the sand so deep they can not see the reality of why it happened.

Its amazing how people still try and talk round the reasons, ignoring AGAIN the whole reason people voted why they did, and they wonder why traction is lost.

Even this thread, I am not saying Farage is a force for good, but he is managing to talk to people in a way that rightly or wrongly hits a spot, so you either engage with them people or you continue to lose them by pigeon holing them as racists and simple. Thats it really.

 

[SpurMeUp]

And if you can't manage to beat Farage even based on all that is wrong with him, which I largely agree with, then you are doing some seriously wrong things.

Do you think main stream politicians from mainstream parties engage well enough with people? Do you think they are in touch with what is really going on in the country and can do so well enough to gain their support? Thats a genuine question, nothing tricky and if you can answer in less than 80 paragraphs would be good.

For me I think the past couple of years has proven that the two/three party system is flawed, the worlds moved on, people are influenced more easily with access to information regardless how poor that information is and politics has not moved with it.

I will always go back to the fact the remain party, as an example had someone living in LA with millions telling the UK to vote remain....regardless of what you think of Farage, thats poorly informed to do that

"If you can't mange to beat Farage"

If I was a politician going toe to toe with him I'd show him up for what he is. I'd love an hour to deconstruct his ideals and identity. But that requires getting into things like immigration, and I don't think mainstream politicians are willing to do that. For the record I am not trying to beat Farage. Just laughing at those who are making him rich while he takes the tinkle.

No as outlined previously I think politics needs to be refreshed. Needs innovation and change. But that does not legitimise Brexit or Farage, they are feeding off that need, while offering nothing really new. Even their false promises are old - that's been done before a plenty.

I agree. While politicians have used things like immigration and made false promises before to get attention, now they can use social media to get exposure they didn't previously. What is odd is they seem to follow such a similar style - they deny climate change is occuring, are right wing, and anti-immigrant - and you can see that all over the world from Trump to La Penn in France, to UKIP or the Brexit party here. Funny isn't it, with all the possibilities, that is what works? It's such a limited doctrine, so uninspiring to me, but I guess its a simple clear message people can grab onto. It's not innovative though and feels a backward step rather than a fresh foot forward.

Who cares about someone living in LA, what does it matter? That Farage is pretending to represent the people over the elites, yet he's making £400k a year from being the face of Brexit has a nice big house in London and mixes with a political elite is yet another of his contradictions. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is Brexit offers us a worse setup than we now have, and stops real genuine changes from happening that could improve things.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Its amazing how people still try and talk round the reasons, ignoring AGAIN the whole reason people voted why they did, and they wonder why traction is lost.

Even this thread, I am not saying Farage is a force for good, but he is managing to talk to people in a way that rightly or wrongly hits a spot, so you either engage with them people or you continue to lose them by pigeon holing them as racists and simple. Thats it really.

Yet you can't seem to outline "the whole reason people voted [the way] they did". That really is something fascinating. You are so clear in feeling this need, but can't outline what it is. We got farmers and fisherman are not being listened to, but you couldn't say what they were asking for. Lets forget others, what is it you are asking for? What is it you would like to see?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Spot on, i am still amazed that several years after both those events there are still some who have buried their heads into the sand so deep they can not see the reality of why it happened.

I am still amazed that people can't outline why "it" happened. Talking for others is never easy. What led to you feeling disenfranchised? What is it you are asking for or would like to see? Genuinely interested.

 

[Grays_1890]

Who cares about someone living in LA, what does it matter?.

Because being talked at by rich elitists like Beckham, Bono and the LA crowd on how to vote did not and does not resonate with the people that eventually voted for Brexit, that was proven, rolling these people out was the backbone of the campaign and it backfired, why? Because it showed how out of touch people really were with the people it was suppose to attract. Again lack of engagement

 

[Grays_1890]

Yet you can't seem to outline "the whole reason people voted [the way] they did". That really is something fascinating. You are so clear in feeling this need, but can't outline what it is. We got farmers and fisherman are not being listened to, but you couldn't say what they were asking for. Lets forget others, what is it you are asking for? What is it you would like to see?

Because I am not every person in every area that voted leave for me to clearly say, but you look at the results, look at the people and the industry that voted out. I imagine the fishing industry voted leave because they have seen their industry go down the pan in recent years.

This is not, like I said earlier a conversation about Brexit and why I voted and I am not going down the road of racking that up again, I am talking about trends in voting and communication with those people and why Farage is cleaning up....rightly or wrongly.

Overall, the voting patterns in the Brexit referendum are complex but the over arching vote was made by those that felf ‘left behind’, be it economically or culturally. Very much the same as the US.

The fact that Brexit seems the vote of choice in the upcoming elections shows that by not listening made Brexit and not delivering and not listening again delivers the Brexit Party. You would be an utter fool if you did not acknowledge that

 

[SpurMeUp]

Because I am not every person in every area that voted leave for me to clearly say, but you look at the results, look at the people and the industry that voted out. I imagine the fishing industry voted leave because they have seen their industry go down the pan in recent years.

This is not, like I said earlier a conversation about Brexit and why I voted and I am not going down the road of racking that up again, I am talking about trends in voting and communication with those people and why Farage is cleaning up....rightly or wrongly.

Lets review what you said and see if I have this right: people are angry they are not being listen to. But you can't outline what it is that we should be listening to or understand. Whether it's farmers and fisherman or using examples in your own life, you can't outline what the grievances are or what should change.

If that is the case, one thing is for sure. None of this Brexit nonsense is ever going to deliver any value to anyone. The Brexit party has no plan for post Brexit and its voters don't know what it is they are angry about...how can anyone do anything?

Brexit started with a false promise. The people who made the false promises, are the same people who are now saying the establishment didn't deliver.