Overreaction..

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

I keep saying if we were to finish 5th thats about right, I think we our the 5th best team in England. We dont spend anything near Man U, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea or even Arsenal when it comes to wages and transfer fee's I dont know what some people expect.

This season for me has been a success because I wasn't at all confident about the AVB appointment. He's slowly building HIS team, no matter what happens over the next few weeks this summer is going to be exciting, with two or three signings we could have a team next year that could really do something and if we our in the Uefa Cup I think we will stand a very good chance of winning it.

 

[thfcsteff]

I guarantee if we were in EXACTLY the same position, EXACTLY the same players, EXACTLY the same results, but Redknapp was manager...you wouldn't be saying that.


btw 11 months ago we was sitting 4th? GHod how desperate things looked:lol::lol::lol:

I think the biggest thing here is that Redknapp always found a way of blaming everyone else.

BTW, unrelated to your post but related to the thread...I agree! Great post IMO.

 

[Roy1983]

AVB has my full support. Not that that means a great deal in the larger scale of things but he still has to prove himself too IMO. I said at the start of the season that I'd be happy if we were in with a shot of top 4 by the end of the season, and we are, so I'm happy.

However, even the biggest optimist on here, must accept that Bale has got us out of a lot of trouble this season. Our home performances have been below par even some we've won. I know the full time result is the MOST important factor but we've got lucky on more than one occasion.

I'm optimistic about next season as gutterboy says but I'd like to see how AVB gets on with a full summer and I'm very interested to see how next season pans out.

 

[Kingdawson]

I think the biggest thing here is that Redknapp always found a way of blaming everyone else.

BTW, unrelated to your post but related to the thread...I agree! Great post IMO.

We all know he does that though? we all know he likes to gives out his transfer targets and other bits of info to the press? we all know he likes a bargain? we all know he seems like a dishonest human being?

some choose to differentiate the mans character to his managerial ability though. For me, being 4th position with the same players etc etc etc is the same with AVB than it is with Arry. Their pure hatred of the man leads them to diminish his achievements with us, leads them to be unfair in their analysis of what he did for us whilst at the helm.

How someone can say they don't care about the final 3 games i really don't know. So if we lose all 3 games 4-0 it doesn't paint a negative light to the season and AVB's performance? ok then.

 

[joey55]

QUOTE=joey55

But it isn't upto you. Levy didn't appoint AVB on a whim. Long discussions would have taken place about objectives and they came to an agreement. In order to appoint AVB Levy had to fire a coach that had proven he could over come the financial advantages our rivals have. He's demonstrated he could finish in the top 4 with different squads, playing in different styles. Levy decided to remove him and appoint someone else with the belief that they could do better, even with the financial restrictions.

you don't know Levys reasons for replacing Harry Redknapp anymore than i do - there are many potential reasons as to why Levy (or Lewis even) could have wanted to replace him, not least the way he took his eye off the ball and openly courted another job whilst letting our form nosedive for several months - or opening challenging the club to offer him a new contract at the end of the season after spurning our offer only several months earlier? we don't know for sure that Levy was unhappy with Redknapps league performances overall or that he expects AVB to surpass him even - he could be happy for him to match it, for example.

What I'm saying isn't biased or unreasonable, but it's treated as if it is on this forum. I'm just telling it like it is. The members here seem to decide things for themselves based on nothing. AVB's role at the club according to this forum seems a world a way from the reality. Some people think he's running the academy and the scouting network. He's not. He's head coach. He's been brought in to improve the coaching. That will be reviewed whether the members of this forum like it or not. He and Levy agreed objectives for the season and this will be part of the review. I'm not saying 5th place is bad. It isn't. But what I am saying is that it most certainly isn't an over achievement, it's not a success and it isn't a sign that things are going in the right direction. It's a failure to reach our objectives (not set by me, so I'm not being biased) and a reason for uncertainty as much as it is to be positive. That's a very reasonable way to view things (assuming we do finish 5th and not 4th). Yet many on this forum act as if it's crazy talk.

i can't talk about what you think other people perceive AVB's role to be at the club, i don't think ive given the impression i think any of the above so not sure of the relevance really

i don't think 5th to be an over achievement, it's more or less where we should be, when you take in to account the changes to the the squad and management over the summer then personally im happy with 5th. again im not sure how you are privy to what Levy has set AVBs target for this season whilst the rest of us can only guess - no doubt that Levy expects long term for us to break in to the top 4 (should he manage to provide the manager with the tools necessary) but in his first season with the squad needing quite a bit of work? Im not so sure myself and if that is what he is demanding then i believe that to be a wholly unreasonable requirement.

I think the biggest misunderstanding is in AVBs role at the club. Most here view him as a manager and feel he's here to build something. Yet all the evidence says that is absolutely not the case. He's here as a head coach. The clubs development and direction will continue with or without him. If he isn't on the training ground someone else will be. But the academy, the scouting, the stadium plans and brand development will continue no matter what.

im not sure which thread it is in but ive mentioned this myself - we're someway back towards a DoF set up, i wouldn't be surprised if over the summer or next season we appoint a DoF (of sorts) all the more reason for me to think that Levy will only judge AVB on what he provides him with, at the moment we can't claim to be better than Arseal or Chelsea (unlike last season) so he cannot expect us to finish higher

I'm not basing what I'm saying on opinion, but what has been said by those at the club. My big frustration is when the members of this forum base things on opinion and myth.

The reason I say harry was replaced as the club wanted someone who could do better, was because Phil Parks gave those exact reasons when chosen to represent the club at the fans annual Q&A. It's actually on youtube. But he's not going to replace Harry with a coach to be inferior anyway. But far more important than that was that AVB himself has said the objective set was top 4 and he agreed to that. I'm not being biased. I'm just going on the only evidence we have. The fans don't get to decide the objectives and what should be expected. Levy and AVB did that and the appointment was made with that in mind. I doubt Levy would have given AVB the job had he said he didn't think top 4 was reasonable goal. There should be nothing controversial about this point of view, but for some reason it's not only seen as such, it's often met with outrage. It's crazy. The club and coach set the objectives, not me and definitely not GB et al.

All I'm really saying is the fans shouldn't make up their own role for AVB and decide what his remit is. I've read on numerous forums about his scouting past and all the players he recommended for Cheslea etc. Yet there is absolutely nothing, total zero, to suggest any of this is even remotely true. As far as I can tell he has no history as talent scout or has ever had the role of identifying transfer targets for any club he's worked for. All I know is that he used to scout the opposition for Jose. He's appointed a guy to do the same for us. It's a totally different role. There is even a PDF of once of his opposition scouting reports, that show what the role was about. I posted a PDF on here the other day, showing just what a specialized job those running our academy have. It's very much got it's own remit and is part of a club progression. Yet so many people think he's re-organizing that. I can't see why they do it. AVB is our head coach. It was the title he was given when he was appointed and all the staff he brought with him have roles that support him in that job. This is what we know. Yet we constantly get people like GB posting absolutely unfounded nonsense and most of the board agree with it! Our fans really think we've seen a massive structural change. When in reality, the coach has even less of a say in things than the previous guy. Hence we signed or sourced most of our new recruits before we'd even appointed a Head Coach.

I'm not sure if we will appoint a DoF or not. I'm not sure we need one. As Levy said the key is communication between all levels. The Academy is very well run. I know we complain about transfers, but compared to most clubs, our scouting and player recruitment is very well run. The first team still has question marks over it whether it's moving forward or backwards. I don't see that as a biased statement. We'll be more clear at the end of the season. But given the size of the operation, I'm not sure we actually need someone to oversee it all. In real terms, Spurs just isn't that big of an organisation. We just need good communication.

 

[diego_maradona]

We all know he does that though? we all know he likes to gives out his transfer targets and other bits of info to the press? we all know he likes a bargain? we all know he seems like a dishonest human being?

some choose to differentiate the mans character to his managerial ability though. For me, being 4th position with the same players etc etc etc is the same with AVB than it is with Arry. Their pure hatred of the man leads them to diminish his achievements with us, leads them to be unfair in their analysis of what he did for us whilst at the helm.

How someone can say they don't care about the final 3 games i really don't know. So if we lose all 3 games 4-0 it doesn't paint a negative light to the season and AVB's performance? ok then.

Good post. If we fail miserably in the final 3 games then people will definitely turn on AVB and certainly Levy even more so.

Up until this point though, in the overall grand scheme of things, it is positive as a whole.

 

[joey55]

I think the biggest thing here is that Redknapp always found a way of blaming everyone else.

BTW, unrelated to your post but related to the thread...I agree! Great post IMO.

And you always found a way of blaming him. Yet surprisingly you've lost your touch this season, as has Gutterboy!

 

[billyiddo]

fair post joey

if the target has been set for a minimum of top 4 by Levy & Co for this season then it is something i disagree with (and i will continue to judge him and the team on what i perceive to be fair, depending on the circumstances)

 

[joey55]

fair post joey

if the target has been set for a minimum of top 4 by Levy & Co for this season then it is something i disagree with (and i will continue to judge him and the team on what i perceive to be fair, depending on the circumstances)

I disagree with it as well. In my opinion I thought it was outrageous when Levy fired Jol or tried to replace him in the summer before his sacking. I thought Redknapp's sacking was equally as outrageous.

I think setting position based goals is stupid as there are so many other variables. Personally I'm worried about the coaching and if I find it odd, but not unexpected, more aren't. That really doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to judge things just on results or where we finished, but in terms of how I think the team is playing and the players are developing. I think Levy and co will do that, but I think any decision they take regarding the future will be much more based on the position we finish or points between us and our rivals, rather than an analysis of the coaching, which I think is the wrong way to go.

 

[thfcsteff]

We all know he does that though? we all know he likes to gives out his transfer targets and other bits of info to the press? we all know he likes a bargain? we all know he seems like a dishonest human being?

some choose to differentiate the mans character to his managerial ability though. For me, being 4th position with the same players etc etc etc is the same with AVB than it is with Arry. Their pure hatred of the man leads them to diminish his achievements with us, leads them to be unfair in their analysis of what he did for us whilst at the helm.

How someone can say they don't care about the final 3 games i really don't know. So if we lose all 3 games 4-0 it doesn't paint a negative light to the season and AVB's performance? ok then.

Honestly, that's a very fair point.

I'll put aside the fact I don't think he's quite as good as he's considered, and that even he recently admitted that anyone with a slight amount of ability could've kept us up that season, you have detailed a fact. I PERSONALLY found it very hard to enjoy his achievements from the moment last August when he back-tracked on Modric in August after Levy had worked hammer & tongs to keep him. I don't think it was pure hatred, more a deep distrust of his motives, which wasn't helped by his increasingly bizarre circumstances as the season went on. And yes, his behaviour, and what he said, and what he DIDN'T say, drove me absolutely mental.

So being objective, I'd say your bold-face point carries merit for sure (certainly in my case). Because yes, there were some lovely times when he was manager. And as I consistently said when the fires burned brightest, if he'd admitted some culpability for what happened last season, if he'd apologized for the England distraction, I think I probably would've (somewhat hypocritcally!) found it in me to forgive and forget!

I think what GB meant re: final three games was that this is bonus territory for him with regards to expectations...I think we're all invested in a massive, massive way.

COYS

 

[thfcsteff]

And you always found a way of blaming him. Yet surprisingly you've lost your touch this season, as has Gutterboy!

I'm very comfortable with my opinions. Are you with yours?

 

[africanspurs]

Our target was champions league football which was 3rd or 4th (dependant on Chelsea). We were 13 points ahead in 3rd and therefore we had every right to re-evaluate our goal. Redknapp messed it up and we lost out on CL due to Chelsea winning it. We were in the driving seat but the driver took his eye off the ball and we lost out. We lost our top 2 playmakers and our best defender. How is that not a desperate situation? The squad was inbalanced and we lost a lost of ball players. We are doing well, considering that Everton and Liverpool have similar strength squads to us. Of course Bale makes the difference and he is one of the main reasons that we are 5th.

our target wasnt champions league. it was top 4. if it was CL then that means 3rd and you know full well that third was not the goal come start of the season

first gutter boy says we were 12 points clears and now you say 13 points clear. next someone wiill say we were 15 points clear..and so on and so forth. i am going to check that cause i think someone here is telling porkies a bit

and we re-evaluate our position ...why? cause of where we were under redknapp. or would it have been better for you if we had been hovering between 4th and 5th...maybe that way because we dared NOT to reach for lofty heights you would have been happy with 4th possibly, but no.....that saying of give them a cookie and they will want milk comes to mind. Dude we got our cookie ..if we got the milk thats a bonus

to quote don draper "you know what this is!!?? this is MUNICH!!!"


i would also like to point out how it was Redknapp that messed it up......and not the personell on the pitch. Promise me that you wont come across as a bent debater mate .... we go waaaaaaay back on this place. Promise me that you will put the same brick on AVB's door if we dont make CL...or even 3rd for that matter.

i do agree that redknapp took his eye off the ball but damn if i will sit here and let people forget about factoring in theplayers too...and the lack of form and confidence that struck the squad

we lost our top 2 playmakers.....ONE of them was always going to go...not harry's fault and the other was LET GO by AVB........VDV let him go....do you understand this. AVB says no one goes without his say so and agreement so clearly AVB was okay to let VDV go. which is fine...but you are making it out we lost both modders and VDV because of the redknapp situation...we didnt.

I'm also not sure why you would think we wouldnt be replacing these players somehow. we were always going to

i also like the way you drop our quality just to make your point stand. i.e we have similar players to everton...give me a righteous break...puh---lease man. our squad similar to EVERTON!!!?? you have clearly got no point there......you could have just at a stretch stuck with liverpool but yuo had to pick the team under us that perenially over achieves because of strong leader ship , loyalty and continuity.

*everton the same / similar talent squad to us.......what a joke. you go ask an everton supporter how many of our players they would take. i know there is only a couple of players of theirs i would want

i am also at a bit of a loss as to how our squad was imbalanced.....did we not fix this with purchases? and how imbalanced was it last season? if you sell someone , you try and replace them. we did...what's the problem? acting like top 4 is a disasater..or that selling players is the end of a great club like ours

we get one season of CL footy, under a brick manager apparently and everyone starts to see desperation at getting 4th. my days

 

[africanspurs]

We'd just imploded and blown our 12 point lead. There was the heartbreak of Munich. Levy seemed to be dordling over sacking Redknapp and Moyes/Martinez were hot favourites for the job. We knew there would be a massive press backlash. All our big stars apparently wanted to leave and we did end up losing 3 of our 4 'worldies'. We were in a right state.

if you are including munich and the loss of VDV then its safe to say that by this time we had finished 4th, we removed a manager you didnt rate at the first chance , we signed AVB much like you knew all summer (do dont give us that crap like we didnt know what was happening) and we had already brought in siggy before VDV left

but in your mind we were in a right state?

dont agree

 

[punk_is_back`]

our target wasnt champions league. it was top 4. if it was CL then that means 3rd and you know full well that third was not the goal come start of the season

first gutter boy says we were 12 points clears and now you say 13 points clear. next someone wiill say we were 15 points clear..and so on and so forth. i am going to check that cause i think someone here is telling porkies a bit

and we re-evaluate our position ...why? cause of where we were under redknapp. or would it have been better for you if we had been hovering between 4th and 5th...maybe that way because we dared NOT to reach for lofty heights you would have been happy with 4th possibly, but no.....that saying of give them a cookie and they will want milk comes to mind. Dude we got our cookie ..if we got the milk thats a bonus

to quote don draper "you know what this is!!?? this is MUNICH!!!"


i would also like to point out how it was Redknapp that messed it up......and not the personell on the pitch. Promise me that you wont come across as a bent debater mate .... we go waaaaaaay back on this place. Promise me that you will put the same brick on AVB's door if we dont make CL...or even 3rd for that matter.

i do agree that redknapp took his eye off the ball but damn if i will sit here and let people forget about factoring in theplayers too...and the lack of form and confidence that struck the squad

we lost our top 2 playmakers.....ONE of them was always going to go...not harry's fault and the other was LET GO by AVB........VDV let him go....do you understand this. AVB says no one goes without his say so and agreement so clearly AVB was okay to let VDV go. which is fine...but you are making it out we lost both modders and VDV because of the redknapp situation...we didnt.

I'm also not sure why you would think we wouldnt be replacing these players somehow. we were always going to

i also like the way you drop our quality just to make your point stand. i.e we have similar players to everton...give me a righteous break...puh---lease man. our squad similar to EVERTON!!!?? you have clearly got no point there......you could have just at a stretch stuck with liverpool but yuo had to pick the team under us that perenially over achieves because of strong leader ship , loyalty and continuity.

*everton the same / similar talent squad to us.......what a joke. you go ask an everton supporter how many of our players they would take. i know there is only a couple of players of theirs i would want

i am also at a bit of a loss as to how our squad was imbalanced.....did we not fix this with purchases? and how imbalanced was it last season? if you sell someone , you try and replace them. we did...what's the problem? acting like top 4 is a disasater..or that selling players is the end of a great club like ours

we get one season of CL footy, under a brick manager apparently and everyone starts to see desperation at getting 4th. my days

The players lost their way on the pitch as Redknapp wasn't there to coach us properly. How can the players have focus if their manager isn't leading via example? We had amazing players last season and the team was firing on all cylinders till the England speculation came in, This was no coincidence. Redknapp then started the blame game saying things like "they're telling me to play 4-4-2"; and made tactical mistakes such as playing the "winning team" who won at Saudi Sportswashing Machine against Arsenal with players like Krancjar and Parker in a midfield 4 with it. When I meant re-evaluate or position, I meant midway through last season, where we were 13 points clear in third place. If we were hovering around 4/5th,; 4th would have been an achievement. But given us being in 3rd, the change in perspective means that technically we lost out on third place through our own fault.. This year 4th was ideal, however knowing the dross we have brought in to replace VDV and Modric, and our lack of strikeforce meant that it would be a very difficult proposition. Both players would have left regardless, however AVB can only use the players we have, therefore it makes it difficult to compare his achievements this season in comparison with Harry's. However if we take a look at last year's team VS this year's team going into the run in:


2012 run in
Friedel

Walker
Dawson
Kaboul
BAE

Lennon
VDV
Sandro
Modric
Bale

Adebayor



2013 tail end

Lloris

Walker
Daws
Vertoghen
BAE/Naughton

Lennon
Parker
Dembele
Dempse

Bale
Defoe/Ade


Tell me which team you would have more confidence in to see it out? If AVB had last years team, we would have easily qualified I reckon. Heck, even the Carrick, Davids, Jenas, Lennon midfield would be better than our current one.

And with regards to the everton point, IMO

-Everton have better strikers than us save Bale.
-Mirallas is better winger than Lennon/sig or dempsey.
- Fellaini is a better player than Parker and possibly better than Dembele.
-Baines is better than BAE
-Jagielka is better than Daws
However of course we have Bale, Verts and Lloris who are better than any of their equivalents.
.
With regards to AVB letting VDV go, he only let him go because he asked to leave; if a player doesn't want to be there anymore we have no choice.

 

[africanspurs]

The players lost their way on the pitch as Redknapp wasn't there to coach us properly. How can the players have focus if their manager isn't leading via example? We had amazing players last season and the team was firing on all cylinders till the England speculation came in, This was no coincidence. Redknapp then started the blame game saying things like "they're telling me to play 4-4-2"; and made tactical mistakes such as playing the "winning team" who won at Saudi Sportswashing Machine against Arsenal with players like Krancjar and Parker in a midfield 4 with it. When I meant re-evaluate or position, I meant midway through last season, where we were 13 points clear in third place. If we were hovering around 4/5th,; 4th would have been an achievement. But given us being in 3rd, the change in perspective means that technically we lost out on third place through our own fault.. This year 4th was ideal, however knowing the dross we have brought in to replace VDV and Modric, and our lack of strikeforce meant that it would be a very difficult proposition. Both players would have left regardless, however AVB can only use the players we have, therefore it makes it difficult to compare his achievements this season in comparison with Harry's. However if we take a look at last year's team VS this year's team going into the run in:


2012 run in
Friedel

Walker
Dawson
Kaboul
BAE

Lennon
VDV
Sandro
Modric
Bale

Adebayor



2013 tail end

Lloris

Walker
Daws
Vertoghen
BAE/Naughton

Lennon
Parker
Dembele
Dempse

Bale
Defoe/Ade


Tell me which team you would have more confidence in to see it out? If AVB had last years team, we would have easily qualified I reckon. Heck, even the Carrick, Davids, Jenas, Lennon midfield would be better than our current one.

And with regards to the everton point, IMO

-Everton have better strikers than us save Bale.
-Mirallas is better winger than Lennon/sig or dempsey.
- Fellaini is a better player than Parker and possibly better than Dembele.
-Baines is better than BAE
-Jagielka is better than Daws
However of course we have Bale, Verts and Lloris who are better than any of their equivalents.
.
With regards to AVB letting VDV go, he only let him go because he asked to leave; if a player doesn't want to be there anymore we have no choice.

okay, i'm getting irritated now...which just means i will step away from this line of discussion.

i cant take the fact that you would take more everton players for our first team than spurs players and i absolutely hate the hypocrisy of re-evaluating our position for one manager and not the other. not to mention that all those players for the run in were either injured or unifit in harry regimes...they werent all playing at the same time in the run in....for a start parker played as the starter for quite some time and sandro filled in...VDv was either injured or getting injured...but who cares about facts

sooo, a deep breath....i think your points have merits but are COMPLETELY BIASED and i cant take you seriously. i'm done as far as you and i discussing it. fill your boots

 

[ArcspacE]

Side note but Mirallas is a top, top player now that yout brought it up - would absolutely love it if we signed him - street ahead of Sig and Dempsey

 

[billyiddo]

i absolutely hate the hypocrisy of re-evaluating our position for one manager and not the other

are the circumstances we find ourselves in now the same as we found ourselves in last season? no - so what's hypocritical about looking at them differently?

 

[africanspurs]

are the circumstances we find ourselves in now the same as we found ourselves in last season? no - so what's hypocritical about looking at them differently?

do / say whatever you need to mate. everyone knows where you are with this and why. pointless...and tiring abit..we have done this dance before, i'd rather not do it again with you either if you dont mind

 

[africanspurs]

Side note but Mirallas is a top, top player now that yout brought it up - would absolutely love it if we signed him - street ahead of Sig and Dempsey

not saying mirallas is a bad player but i would rather have lennon as my winger any day of the week. i would prefer mirralas to dempsey but not to siggy. i actually think their skill sets are different but siggy to me has more depth in his talents and methods of application than mirrallas, mirallas being a more direct sort of player. i personally would take siggy over mirralas but it depends on the system and the coach

 

[ArcspacE]

He is streets ahead of Siggy - I can only suggest you watch him more often and more carefully - fantastic player with technical ability as good as Dembele's