Our Poor European Form

[glorygloryeze]

Saw this one another site and thought it gave a fair perspective on our exit this week (save for not playing two of our first choice defenders..):

"For reference, the only English side, so far, to have not been eliminated from the Champions League in the group stages in one of their first two appearances are Chelsea.

All of the following teams were eliminated at this stage once in their first two appearances:

Manchester United
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Leeds United
Liverpool

The following team was eliminated at this stage in their only appearance:

Blackburn Rovers

The following team was eliminated at this stage in BOTH their first two appearances:

Woolwich

You doom and gloomers try to pretend we're different to those sides and we have some GHod given right to get through a group, but we aren't. Just like the clubs mentioned above when they first qualified, we're vastly inexperienced at this level currently and need consistent qualification to learn at this level and become stalwarts. In fact, most were stronger and better resourced than we are currently and not going through widespread changes throughout the club.

For further reference, when Woolwich used Wembley they were knocked out at the group stages both times. So Wembley is obviously a major issue. It isn't home and it never will be.

Even when you become a stalwart of the competition there is no guarantee. The following teams have been knocked out at the group stages in the last six years:

Juventus
Atletico
Liverpool (twice)
Emirates Marketing Project
Manchester United (twice)
Chelsea
Porto (twice)

The fact of the matter is we're walking a well trodden path with the Champions League, a path trodden by far bigger clubs than us, a path that is never going to be easy and will have more failure than glory. Like nearly every other club has experienced. We've experienced both in our two forays in this competition and I'd suggest we'll learn more from this failure than the previous ''success'' of a QF run culminating in a Real Madrid tie.

We aren't going to be some anomaly like Chelsea who bought their way to success and are seen as the runt of the elite.

Give the guys a fcuking break with your negative, entitled flimflam. The group isn't easy, none at this level are. To think that is to only showcase your arrogance."

 

[StephenH]

Good find @glorygloryeze

Some much welcomed and needed perspective!

 

[Seedy Ron]

Do people have a problem with being knocked out though, or a problem with how we've played in being knocked out?

And plenty are happy to tell you Leicester had an easy group

 

[parklane1]

Do people have a problem with being knocked out though, or a problem with how we've played in being knocked out?

And plenty are happy to tell you Leicester had an easy group

Personally speaking i have no problem with being knocked out ( after all we are a long way from being able to win it) my gripe is ( once again) team selection. After trying so hard to qualify for the CL ( giving up all our chances of winning a trophy elsewhere) we go into a game which because of our poor form earlier we HAD to win. We were already without three players through injury ( Toby, Lamela and Davies) and then we leave three of our best players on the bench.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Personally speaking i have no problem with being knocked out ( after all we are a long way from being able to win it) my gripe is ( once again) team selection. After trying so hard to qualify for the CL ( giving up all our chances of winning a trophy elsewhere) we go into a game which because of our poor form earlier we HAD to win. We were already without three players through injury ( Toby, Lamela and Davies) and then we leave three of our best players on the bench.

Yep, i think this is fair and was annoying for me on the day. I think we will judge it by what happens in our next two games as to who starts in the defensive positions. I did read somewhere that Walker struggles big time now to play 3 games in a week..

 

[DubaiSpur]

The CL is a cup competition; i'm a p-ed off as anyone about our CL exit but ultimately we had an even group with no gimmies. We also missed our key striker who as you say outscored all those Redknapp ones and would have (probably) balanced out the fact that we had less of those stardust type "do something out of nothing" midfielders that Redknapp's side had at their disposal.

It's even in terms of quality more because of Poch's management up to this point (particularly coaching, tactical preparation and conditioning) and whilst it is right that Poch and the team's on-pitch performance be scrutinised we would do well to remember that and not claim such tosh as above like "Redknapp achieved more with far less"

An even group with no gimmes, perhaps. In terms of challenge, I'm not sure you can particularly claim this group was harder than one with the reigning CL champions and a Bremen side still in their 'Torfabrik' (goal factory) era. Our striker was also present for (iirc) two games in the group out of the five we played, so it wasn't a total write off from that perspective.

Redknap achieved more with about the same, is my point. Not less, but about the same.

 

[spurs' magna carter]

Cheers for posting that @glorygloryeze

One of the things that amazed me after Tuesday night was that people pretty much expected us to walk over a team brimming with confidence and unbeaten at home in the previous 13 home games.

Also, whilst creating that chart on the previous page, I couldn't help but think 'do we as fans expect too much?' We're hardly lifting trophy after trophy whilst also having the youngest team in the Prem. I too knee jerk, as I did on Tuesday night but the epectation levels are just staggering.

Over the next 3 or 4 years we need to do simple stuff (easier said than done)

Win the FA Cup
Finish in the top 2
Reach a European final

We haven't done the above in decades, yet people genuinely believe we have this GHod given right and to be fair we're not the only ones. Even some of the smaller clubs go ape sometimes, despite punching well above their weight, I guess part of it is the 24/7 society that we now live in.

Poch has his aims and will focus on them regardless, he's right to rotate, tomorrow night is massive and we've already seen what a couple of injuries can do to the squad.

 

[Jordinho]

If we can qualify for the CL once or twice more in this decade we will have done incredibly well. I wouldn't mind adding one trophy just to get this decade covered, but the league should be the priority this early in the season. Later on too if everything is still touch and go.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Cheers for posting that @glorygloryeze

One of the things that amazed me after Tuesday night was that people pretty much expected us to walk over a team brimming with confidence and unbeaten at home in the previous 13 home games.

Also, whilst creating that chart on the previous page, I couldn't help but think 'do we as fans expect too much?' We're hardly lifting trophy after trophy whilst also having the youngest team in the Prem. I too knee jerk, as I did on Tuesday night but the epectation levels are just staggering.

Over the next 3 or 4 years we need to do simple stuff (easier said than done)

Win the FA Cup
Finish in the top 2
Reach a European final

We haven't done the above in decades, yet people genuinely believe we have this GHod given right and to be fair we're not the only ones. Even some of the smaller clubs go ape sometimes, despite punching well above their weight, I guess part of it is the 24/7 society that we now live in.

Poch has his aims and will focus on them regardless, he's right to rotate, tomorrow night is massive and we've already seen what a couple of injuries can do to the squad.

?

My expectations are merely constant improvement - if we finished on 70 points last time out, I want us to exceed that. If we finished in the knockout rounds in the EL, I'd like to see us do the same in the CL (which would constitute progress given the disparity between the two competitions). If we went out in the first round in the cups, I'd like us to go further. Provided the chairman doesn't interfere by stopping the manager from getting his targets or arbitrarily limiting us to a negative net spend (which he's finally done with some aplomb this year), I see no reason to slack up on those expectations.

However, if it becomes a question of the relative worth of objectives, that I'm completely unashamed to say that all of that goes out the window when a trophy is on the line. If Poch wins a trophy, I couldn't give a damn where he finishes in the league or how he does elsewhere, that's a success that deserves to be richly celebrated and makes the season worth it from the perspective of a simple fan.

 

[afsoc4life]

My problem is that we put such a limp fight in the CL for a club that had been trying to get into it. Even Leicester put up a better fight!!

 

[glasgowspur]

My problem is that we put such a limp fight in the CL for a club that had been trying to get into it. Even Leicester put up a better fight!!

We had a group full of CL regulars some of whom actually qualify from the group sometimes, Leicestershire group was full of Cannon fodder.

 

[braineclipse]

Saw this one another site and thought it gave a fair perspective on our exit this week (save for not playing two of our first choice defenders..):

"For reference, the only English side, so far, to have not been eliminated from the Champions League in the group stages in one of their first two appearances are Chelsea.

All of the following teams were eliminated at this stage once in their first two appearances:

Manchester United
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Leeds United
Liverpool

The following team was eliminated at this stage in their only appearance:

Blackburn Rovers

The following team was eliminated at this stage in BOTH their first two appearances:

Woolwich

You doom and gloomers try to pretend we're different to those sides and we have some GHod given right to get through a group, but we aren't. Just like the clubs mentioned above when they first qualified, we're vastly inexperienced at this level currently and need consistent qualification to learn at this level and become stalwarts. In fact, most were stronger and better resourced than we are currently and not going through widespread changes throughout the club.

For further reference, when Woolwich used Wembley they were knocked out at the group stages both times. So Wembley is obviously a major issue. It isn't home and it never will be.

Even when you become a stalwart of the competition there is no guarantee. The following teams have been knocked out at the group stages in the last six years:

Juventus
Atletico
Liverpool (twice)
Emirates Marketing Project
Manchester United (twice)
Chelsea
Porto (twice)

The fact of the matter is we're walking a well trodden path with the Champions League, a path trodden by far bigger clubs than us, a path that is never going to be easy and will have more failure than glory. Like nearly every other club has experienced. We've experienced both in our two forays in this competition and I'd suggest we'll learn more from this failure than the previous ''success'' of a QF run culminating in a Real Madrid tie.

We aren't going to be some anomaly like Chelsea who bought their way to success and are seen as the runt of the elite.

Give the guys a fcuking break with your negative, entitled hogwash. The group isn't easy, none at this level are. To think that is to only showcase your arrogance."

Top post, thanks for sharing.

Just to add one team. Klopp's Dortmund were knocked out in the group stages in both the 10/11 and 11/12 seasons before going all the way to the final in 12/13. A team in a comparable situation to ours, trying to compete with a limited budget and coming back into the CL after some time away from it. People were even throwing around the same "this style doesn't work with league and European football" nonsense.

?

My expectations are merely constant improvement - if we finished on 70 points last time out, I want us to exceed that. If we finished in the knockout rounds in the EL, I'd like to see us do the same in the CL (which would constitute progress given the disparity between the two competitions). If we went out in the first round in the cups, I'd like us to go further. Provided the chairman doesn't interfere by stopping the manager from getting his targets or arbitrarily limiting us to a negative net spend (which he's finally done with some aplomb this year), I see no reason to slack up on those expectations.

However, if it becomes a question of the relative worth of objectives, that I'm completely unashamed to say that all of that goes out the window when a trophy is on the line. If Poch wins a trophy, I couldn't give a damn where he finishes in the league or how he does elsewhere, that's a success that deserves to be richly celebrated and makes the season worth it from the perspective of a simple fan.

Constant, linear improvement without hickups is an unrealistic expectation and one that sets up whatever poor manager or head coach we have for failure. To present this as if it's a humble expectation by saying "merely" is quite far out there for me.

Improvement should be the expectation.

 

[braineclipse]

My problem is that we put such a limp fight in the CL for a club that had been trying to get into it. Even Leicester put up a better fight!!

14 in the league, 2 points above relegation. Would you swap their position overall for ours?

Or do you want us to do what they're doing in the CL whilst doing what Liverpool and Chelsea are doing in the league?

 

[DubaiSpur]

Constant, linear improvement without hickups is an unrealistic expectation and one that sets up whatever poor manager or head coach we have for failure. To present this as if it's a humble expectation by saying "merely" is quite far out there for me.

Improvement should be the expectation.

Au contraire, constant linear improvement *provided* the coach gets the money he wants to spend and the players he wants to buy is perfectly reasonable. You get the backing, you're expected to deliver results, or pay or the lack of said results. It's a humble expectation, since it's par for the course in most demanding professions worldwide.

I've not demanded constant improvement of managers that Levy has withheld support and funding for - but he's gone into a net spend for Poch, as well as given contracts to all our key players. Thus, I expect improvement over last season's points total as a *bare* minimum, especially given how carelessly Poch has thrown away our cup chances so far (which implies similar attitudes when the EL/FA Cup rolls around). If he wants to prioritize the league, fine - show results there.

I'll save the truly irrational backing of a manager for one that actually wins something for the club, be it Poch or someone else - that tends to throw my compass out of the loop to a great extent.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We looked what we are: inexperienced. This coupled with playing home, away. And some injuries and ineffective rotation. Poch knows we were not good enough. We have to come back stronger. Learn. Develop. Still have complete backing for the Manager.

 

[braineclipse]

Au contraire, constant linear improvement *provided* the coach gets the money he wants to spend and the players he wants to buy is perfectly reasonable. You get the backing, you're expected to deliver results, or pay or the lack of said results. It's a humble expectation, since it's par for the course in most demanding professions worldwide.

I've not demanded constant improvement of managers that Levy has withheld support and funding for - but he's gone into a net spend for Poch, as well as given contracts to all our key players. Thus, I expect improvement over last season's points total as a *bare* minimum, especially given how carelessly Poch has thrown away our cup chances so far (which implies similar attitudes when the EL/FA Cup rolls around). If he wants to prioritize the league, fine - show results there.

I'll save the truly irrational backing of a manager for one that actually wins something for the club, be it Poch or someone else - that tends to throw my compass out of the loop to a great extent.

Even if I accept that as a fact what does that have to do with football?

What are the teams you think it's reasonable to compare us to that have gone through constant linear improvement year in year out to end up where they want to be?

Surely if this is a humble expectation there should be plenty of examples of teams making this happen? Football teams that is.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Do people have a problem with being knocked out though, or a problem with how we've played in being knocked out?

And plenty are happy to tell you Leicester had an easy group

Not so much with how we've played. We perhaps underestimated Monaco when we played them in September. Leverkusen were just too good for us on the night, you could tell from the first few minutes they were bang on it and we were poor.

My main issue is with the team Poch picked for Monaco away. As Parklane said, why expend all that energy to finish 3rd only to rest players for the most crucial game in the group? Monaco are a tricky side but they are beatable. Let's say we do win the EL which means we qualify for the CL again, will Poch rest players again in another crucial CL group game? If so, what's the point?

 

[billyiddo]

Not so much with how we've played. We perhaps underestimated Monaco when we played them in September. Leverkusen were just too good for us on the night, you could tell from the first few minutes they were bang on it and we were poor.

My main issue is with the team Poch picked for Monaco away. As Parklane said, why expend all that energy to finish 3rd only to rest players for the most crucial game in the group? Monaco are a tricky side but they are beatable. Let's say we do win the EL which means we qualify for the CL again, will Poch rest players again in another crucial CL group game? If so, what's the point?

I imagine it's more a case of doing what he thinks is best at the time rather than any hard and fast policy which he'll always stick to.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Even if I accept that as a fact what does that have to do with football?

Only that football management is one of the world's highest-paid professions, and thus is accompanied by this phenomenon of expected, constant improvement in situations where the manager is backed with money and the acquisition of his targets.

What are the teams you think it's reasonable to compare us to that have gone through constant linear improvement year in year out to end up where they want to be?

Surely if this is a humble expectation there should be plenty of examples of teams making this happen? Football teams that is.

Oh, all sorts. Whichever teams have given the manager a net spend to work with and then expected an improvement in results. Take Brendan Rodgers as an example from the immediate past - he was backed, did extremely well in 2013-2014, was backed again, regressed heavily in 2014-2015, and then was quickly sacked after being backed and regressing again in 2015-2016.

If teams invest without weakening elsewhere, they generally expect results - or at least an improvement over previous results. That such expectations exist in terms of what Poch must do this season really shouldn't be surprising given that fact. It's not like I'm asking for the moon, either (as in, 'Poch got Sissoko so anything less than the title is a failure). But, given that he's actively throwing away cup competitions to focus on the league, I expect at a minimum an improvement over last season in that competition - by at least three points or so. Anything less, and it's a disappointing performance from him which will frame the sort of expectations that will be placed on his fourth season here (2017-2018).