Our Poor European Form

[wiziwig]

I think it's more simple really: Leicester had a far easier group given their seeding, they have put ALL their eggs in the CL basket (esp given how crap they have been in the league this season), they have a manager who is more experienced in the CL and who has now abandoned trying to juggle between the two.
Going out at the group stage is not so much the issue for me (we had a well-balance group with no 'gimmes') but it's the poor play in the majority of the games and not being clinical enough at key times.

It's not always the fantastic sublime play that differentiates the top teams and the okayish teams but the simple basic things done well. To see simple passes to a team mate so he can stride forward on to the ball rather than having to jog back a couple of yards to retrieve it. To see a player pass the ball, then stand there, rather than jog into space offering himself as an outlet to the player with ball. To see players, that when the ball is crossed they're on their heals with no anticipation and no gamble where the ball is going to be.

Spurs for me this CL has been a mistake ridden adventure, has at times been like watching England v Iceland in the recent Euro's!

 

[Grays_1890]

I could buy into that more if we'd gone out because we'd played naively, perhaps been too open and been undone by teams with more savvy than we currently have, but we've just been rank bad in so many (all?) of our matches. I don't really see how inexperience accounts for doing the basics so poorly.

From what I saw we didn't get to the level of intensity well enough.

 

[Mr_B]

I was going to say we need players with CL nous, a VDV for example who had the experience at this level but thats not the case with leicester who have seized this opportunity and gone for it gung-ho, we've looked nervous and lacking confidence in these games, teams like Monaco play at this level every year so they definitely have an edge over us, leaving out key players in must win games doesn't help either.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was going to say we need players with CL nous, a VDV for example who had the experience at this level but thats not the case with leicester who have seized this opportunity and gone for it gung-ho, we've looked nervous and lacking confidence in these games, teams like Monaco play at this level every year so they definitely have an edge over us, leaving out key players in must win games doesn't help either.

I have to say Leiceter have played some shocking sides though

We have played a weak CSKA side a Bayer side away who hadn't lost at home at that point and Monaco who are the best side in France at the moment

 

[billyiddo]

well id rather be in our league position and out the CL than in Leicesters league position and in the CL...not that they have to be mutually exclusive.

i think whilst our CL performance under Redknapp was great at the time it didn't really lead to better things for us, arguably qualifying again via the league would have put us in a better position going in to the following years

 

[spurs' magna carter]

Had a look at we have done in the cups since we first qualified for Europe under Jol. Hopefully, I've got the results right, please correct if not.

What really shocked me was that since 2013, we have reached the Q/F stages of a competition just once. Compare that to the previous 13 seasons where we failed to get to the Q/Fs just twice (2002/03 & 2005/06).

I agree wholeheartedly with this thread, despite the regular appearances in Europe we barely make an impression. But reading back to myself the above was a serious shock. We're essentially failing on all fronts in the cups, not just Europe.

 

[Rorschach]

Had a look at we have done in the cups since we first qualified for Europe under Jol. Hopefully, I've got the results right, please correct if not.

What really shocked me was that since 2013, we have reached the Q/F stages of a competition just once. Compare that to the previous 13 seasons where we failed to get to the Q/Fs just twice (2002/03 & 2005/06).

I agree wholeheartedly with this thread, despite the regular appearances in Europe we barely make an impression. But reading back to myself the above was a serious shock. We're essentially failing on all fronts in the cups, not just Europe.

Just to give you a challenge try adding in our league position over those season and see if there is a correlation.

 

[SUIYHA]

Had a look at we have done in the cups since we first qualified for Europe under Jol. Hopefully, I've got the results right, please correct if not.

What really shocked me was that since 2013, we have reached the Q/F stages of a competition just once. Compare that to the previous 13 seasons where we failed to get to the Q/Fs just twice (2002/03 & 2005/06).

I agree wholeheartedly with this thread, despite the regular appearances in Europe we barely make an impression. But reading back to myself the above was a serious shock. We're essentially failing on all fronts in the cups, not just Europe.

We were in the QF of the League Cup in 13/14 (remember the meltdown here when we lost at home to West Ham in Sherwood's first game?)

Interesting otherwise though. I was always told whilst growing up that Spurs were a "cup" team. Now we've only won one in the last 17 years, the same as Portsmouth, Wigan, Birmingham and Swansea FFS.

We really should have won those two FA Cup semis in 2010 and 2012...

 

[metalgear]

for europa and champions league, the manager makes a lot of difference.

not just balancing players performance with the domestic league, but added complexity to a whole slew of logistics, nutrition and training systems.

poch needs time on this one, but i can't shake off the memory of redknapp doing better with less.

 

[glorygloryeze]

for europa and champions league, the manager makes a lot of difference.

not just balancing players performance with the domestic league, but added complexity to a whole slew of logistics, nutrition and training systems.

poch needs time on this one, but i can't shake off the memory of redknapp doing better with less.

Are you serious, or trolling?

Redknapp had Bale, Modric, VDV, Lennon and King (sometimes)

Can you tell who we have now (apart from, say Alderweireld perhaps comparing a bit to King) who gets close to Bale, Modric and VDV??

 

[Jurgen the German]

Are you serious, or trolling?

Redknapp had Bale, Modric, VDV, Lennon and King (sometimes)

Can you tell who we have now (apart from, say Alderweireld perhaps comparing a bit to King) who gets close to Bale, Modric and VDV??

Kane?

 

[SUIYHA]

Are you serious, or trolling?

Redknapp had Bale, Modric, VDV, Lennon and King (sometimes)

Can you tell who we have now (apart from, say Alderweireld perhaps comparing a bit to King) who gets close to Bale, Modric and VDV??

Redknapp also had Crouch, Palacios and a highly erratic keeper in his starting XI. Alan fudging Hutton started in the win over Inter!

I'll remind you as well that he beat AC Milan away back when they were good, without Bale and with Modric only fit enough to come off the bench (for Van Der Vaart).

His squad was boosted by some of the best players we've ever had at Tottenham, but let's not forget he was also working with a lot of players who were nowhere near Champions League quality.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Redknapp also had Crouch, Palacios and a highly erratic keeper in his starting XI. Alan fudging Hutton started in the win over Inter!

I'll remind you as well that he beat AC Milan away back when they were good, without Bale and with Modric only fit enough to come off the bench (for Van Der Vaart).

His squad was boosted by some of the best players we've ever had at Tottenham, but let's not forget he was also working with a lot of players who were nowhere near Champions League quality.

Could you not say the same now? We have been poor this season in the CL make no mistake, but can you name anyone of our players that are as good as Bale or Modric back then? VDV?
Plus we are comparing about getting out of the group and not the last 16 etc.
And please AC Milan were obviously better than they are now but they routinely got knocked out in the last 16 vs English clubs back then (apart from Arsenal lol)

 

[glorygloryeze]

Kane?

As a forward, yes. However, how many CL games has he played this season? Maybe if we had him for more of the games we might not be going out already..
And again, who do we have that is as good as Moric, Bale VDV?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Are you serious, or trolling?

Redknapp had Bale, Modric, VDV, Lennon and King (sometimes)

Can you tell who we have now (apart from, say Alderweireld perhaps comparing a bit to King) who gets close to Bale, Modric and VDV??

We have better defenders across the board and better holding midfield options

We dont have the same creative players which is what your highlighting but we have a better striker

The difference is now our world class or borderline players are in the defensive pat of our game plus Kane

Alli may develop into being that level but the rest aren't there.

Overall though as a team we are actually better but the margins at that level come down to who creates and scores as the margins are finer

 

[Jurgen the German]

As a forward, yes. However, how many CL games has he played this season? Maybe if we had him for more of the games we might not be going out already..
And again, who do we have that is as good as Moric, Bale VDV?

In terms of midfielders we don't have anyone in their class. But we have a better keeper and back four.

Kane missed games as you pointed out but he played in both Monaco games.

 

[parklane1]

6 of one and 6 of the other, but one thing i would say that if we had Modric and Bale in this side we would probably be looking to the next round. Assuming of course the manger does/did not leave them on the bench.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Are you serious, or trolling?

Redknapp had Bale, Modric, VDV, Lennon and King (sometimes)

Can you tell who we have now (apart from, say Alderweireld perhaps comparing a bit to King) who gets close to Bale, Modric and VDV??

Toby's approximates Ledley, as you pointed out. Hugo is superior to the gaggle of keepers we played during Harry's time here (Cudicini, Friedel, Gomes - although Gomes had some truly brilliant individual moments in him). Kane is superior to our entire bunch of strikers from the Harry days - Crouch, Defoe, Ade, Pav, you name 'em, Kane's outscored 'em.

Modric, VDV and Bale remain superior to what we've now got *in their respective positions* - CM, AM(sometimes awkward winger) and LM/future CAM, respectively. Similarly, those three players above are equal or superior to what Harry had in the positions they play in - at CB, GK and up front, respectively.

It's about even in terms of the quality of the sides from that perspective. Less of an excuse for Poch's flame-out in the CL than some are making it out to be.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Toby's approximates Ledley, as you pointed out. Hugo is superior to the gaggle of keepers we played during Harry's time here (Cudicini, Friedel, Gomes - although Gomes had some truly brilliant individual moments in him). Kane is superior to our entire bunch of strikers from the Harry days - Crouch, Defoe, Ade, Pav, you name 'em, Kane's outscored 'em.

Modric, VDV and Bale remain superior to what we've now got *in their respective positions* - CM, AM(sometimes awkward winger) and LM/future CAM, respectively. Similarly, those three players above are equal or superior to what Harry had in the positions they play in - at CB, GK and up front, respectively.

It's about even in terms of the quality of the sides from that perspective. Less of an excuse for Poch's flame-out in the CL than some are making it out to be.

The CL is a cup competition; i'm a p-ed off as anyone about our CL exit but ultimately we had an even group with no gimmies. We also missed our key striker who as you say outscored all those Redknapp ones and would have (probably) balanced out the fact that we had less of those stardust type "do something out of nothing" midfielders that Redknapp's side had at their disposal.

It's even in terms of quality more because of Poch's management up to this point (particularly coaching, tactical preparation and conditioning) and whilst it is right that Poch and the team's on-pitch performance be scrutinised we would do well to remember that and not claim such tosh as above like "Redknapp achieved more with far less"

 

[glorygloryeze]

In terms of midfielders we don't have anyone in their class. But we have a better keeper and back four.

Kane missed games as you pointed out but he played in both Monaco games.

Ultimately the Lverkusen games were where we were killed imo. If we hadn't let them take a points advantage directly over us we might even have qualified by now if Kane had played.
Remember how much dominance we had in that first half away, when Janssen had a goal disallowed and he and Lamela hit the woodwork?
Perhaps if Kane was playing we would have gone in at half-time with something to hold onto and hit them on the break when they came at us..

Swings and roundabouts i guess..