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Our impossible position

elltrev

Tim Sherwood
It seems like there's a lot of negativity among us Spurs fans at the moment. Which is understandable, given our awful recent run in all competitions, culminating in our early exit from the CL. And it's also understandable that we try and explain our unusually poor form, and that this inevitably leads to questions about the manager, the dressing room, and the players' mentality. But I think the truth is much simpler, and is something that we need to constantly remind ourselves of:

We are trying to compete for 4 league spots against 5 other teams, all of whom have spent way more money than us! Here's a reminder of net transfer fee spend over the last 9 seasons, and wage bill this season:

Emirates Marketing Project: 779m / 225m
Chelsea: 397m / 218m
United: 414m / 221m
Arsenal: 161m / 201m
Liverpool: 153m / 166m
Tottenham: 14m / 121m

The difference is absurd! We're in such a difficult (and unique) position because we're a bigger club than the rest of the teams in the league, but we're just nowhere near the top 5 spenders in wages and transfer expenditure. So we're in our own little impossible bubble, expecting and expected to compete with the other superclubs, despite having nowhere near the resources.

This might all be very obvious; and of course it doesn't mean that we should just accept and be happy with losing to those fudgers, and/or just accept our lot as perennial Europa league qualifiers. It's natural that we all feel so frustrated and disappointed with how things have gone recently. But let's at least try and bear the facts in mind, and so get behind the team with pride for what we're striving to achieve, rather than becoming blindly obsessed with competing for the CL without acknowleding that the odds are so stacked against us. As per another thread, a start would be not having such an embarassing fudging atmosphere at WHL during one of the club's most successful periods in recent memory.

This season

I think this fundamental point is the foundation for our recent struggle in form, played out as follows:
- Because of our recent history as a club, we expect and are expected to compete with 5 other clubs for the CL, despite spending far less money than them
- This dynamic was magnified last season, after genuinely challenging (at least mathematically) for the title, which has raised expectations even higher for this season
- Those magnified expectations are misplaced though - we only got 70 points last season, which often would have seen us finishing 5th or even 6th - or at best, certainly nowhere near challenging for the title
- And we're in more difficult circumstances this year - we've had injuries to all of our key players (which we were very lucky to avoid last year), and we've had to stretch our squad against higher quality competition in the CL than EL

So essentially we've had even more articifically raised expectations than normal, and an even more challenging context in which to meet them, and I think the combination of those two things has then led to a young team having serious struggles with confidence. Which naturally might also have led to struggles to maintain the physical energy that Poch demands in his training and matches.

Of course I'm not trying to argue that the manager and players should be 100% free of criticism. No doubt they've made mistakes. But that doesn't mean those mistakes are the main reason we're not challenging more in the league and CL. Though it hurts and is disheartening to hear Poch talking down our quality and our chances to succeed at this level in the PL and CL, I think there's truth in it - and maybe he's trying to do the right thing by tempering expectations and reducing unrealistic pressure on a young and burned out squad.

I'll just finish by saying that on balance we still have a very talented young manager and team, with key players under contract and keen to stay, and a big new stadium on the way. As fans, let's not ruin all of that by sinking into a spiral of unwarranted negativity that drags the club down with it, just as we're on the cusp of a financial position that will allow us to truly compete with these other fudgers. More than anyone else we are the ones who have to shake the club's tradition of crumbling under pressure, because we are the only thing that is permanent. And judging by the atmosphere at WHL, we are failing. So let's fudging get behind our young team and manager, and make the Lane a fudging fortress whilst we still can. COYS.
 
If it's all explained by wages then explain us coming third in a Champion's League group with Monaco, Leverkusen and CSKA.


Here's the wages in each group

e4ef24ec2f8a4b38a16bff6cc16afdcd



We pay more in wages than last years Champion's league runners up Atletico Madrid.

Our problem is our first team is great and then there's a huge drop off in quality.

This isn't helped by our recruitment.
Since Poch came in we have bought 15 senior players. Only 3 of those 15 would be in our first eleven is everyone was fit.

And still everyone agrees our squad depth is shocking.

We wont improve until we stop buying back up players every transfer window.
Alderweireld was the only time under Poch that we went out and bought a player that was going to come straight in and replace someone in the first team.
 
We have one first team.
Our main competitors do not.

You just have to look a the respective benches yesterday.

But it's no good continually bleating about it, which we all do after games like yesterday.

It is what it is!

What makes me livid is we don't help ourselves with poor transfers!

Then we hear "they will need a season to settle, you can't write them off yet!" Try telling Wanyama that.
 
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If it's all explained by wages then explain us coming third in a Champion's League group with Monaco, Leverkusen and CSKA.

Because Monaco and Leverkusen are very good teams?

I think some really underestimated those two teams, whilst also forgetting that we missed Toby and Harry for much of the group. Also, money isn't everything, just look at the staggering amounts (transfers and wages) that Man Utd have spent in the past three years and look how far it's gotten them, 1 FA Cup granted but just 1 season in the UCL.

As frustrating and painful as it is, you just have to remember that:
  • We have the youngest squad in the Premier League.
  • We have already had our fair share of injuries.
  • We have the lowest income amongst the top 6 (regulars).
  • We have the most expensive stadium in the history of Club football being built.
  • We have had to play at Wembley in the UCL.
All constraints which have evidently affected the team so far this season.
 
Let not forget Chelsea, Liverpool , city and united all dropped out of the cl at the group stage in recent years.

Leicester showing everyone the way, which is give it 100% and don't seek out hard lessons you don't need to learn.
 
Let not forget Chelsea, Liverpool , city and united all dropped out of the cl at the group stage in recent years.

Leicester showing everyone the way, which is give it 100% and don't seek out hard lessons you don't need to learn.

Isn't it only us and Leiceter that have made the group stages in their first two seasons????
 
I get the point you're making, but @Modric THFC had it right when he pointed out that we pay far more in wages than both Leverkusen and Monaco, two comparable teams on a similar level to us, and yet they pretty much schooled the team and Poch comprehensively over the games we played against them. @spurs' magna carter then points out that money isn't everything, and that they are both really good sides - granted, but then, the same applies to us, doesn't it? Or are we in a warp where we are simultaneously inferior to all the teams that spend more than us and still can be beaten by teams that spend less than us but are 'bloody good teams'?

We have the youngest squad in the league, granted - but Monaco and Leverkusen weren't exactly filled with OAPs when they comfortably schooled our lads. We have had injuries - but so have they (although our reliance on Toby meant that the inevitable injury to him was going to screw us up, admittedly). The rest of @spurs' magna carter 's points apply to the Premier League, save for Wembley - and at Wembley, the question should be about *why* we're shrinking into our shadows there.

The key to turning this around is to recognize that mistakes have been made - the management, the players and the fans have all made mistakes over the course of the past week. *No one* is exempt from criticism about this - no one's sacred idols are worth staying mum over.

Poch hasn't been very ready to admit that he got things wrong in public (except when he said he'd take the criticism for rotating against Monaco, which is the right thing to do, so good on him for that), but I hope...I *believe* that he sees that we have problems in terms of approach, implementation and energy that he'll try to rectify behind closed doors.

I personally never expected a title challenge of any sort - like you, I'm leaning towards last season as being one where we performed as we always do (at par with past performances, reaching 70 points, which is a total we've usually hovered around in recent seasons) but got rewarded for staying consistent while everyone else faltered. However, I *do* absolutely expect Poch to exceed that total this year - 73 points or more should be the aim, since, despite the disparity between us and the rest of the top six, Poch got more to spend in terms of net spending than *any* of his predecessors over the last six years, and thus should have more to show for it.

Alternatively, go for glory in a trophy and I won't care how he does in the league. But here, I think he'll consistently disappoint me given how he apparently views cup competitions with such disdain. So the former remains the target. That I expect - and that is something we're *just* on course to achieve if we keep this standard of performances up through the season, so nothing is so bad yet that it needs apocalyptic talk of sacking him or whatever, if it *does* seriously arise.
 
If it's all explained by wages then explain us coming third in a Champion's League group with Monaco, Leverkusen and CSKA.


Here's the wages in each group

e4ef24ec2f8a4b38a16bff6cc16afdcd



We pay more in wages than last years Champion's league runners up Atletico Madrid.

Our problem is our first team is great and then there's a huge drop off in quality.

This isn't helped by our recruitment.
Since Poch came in we have bought 15 senior players. Only 3 of those 15 would be in our first eleven is everyone was fit.

And still everyone agrees our squad depth is shocking.

We wont improve until we stop buying back up players every transfer window.
Alderweireld was the only time under Poch that we went out and bought a player that was going to come straight in and replace someone in the first team.

Where do those figures come from???

Our wages are £80m a year less than arsenals using the original data at the top of the thread. Using your scale that doesn't add up!!!
 
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Last season was an anomaly .Our correct postion based on stats ,revenue wages etc is probably 6th.Poch is much less experienced that the other top 5 managers They have all won championships and got at least to CL finals.We need to start winning things and instill a winning mentality which is why i want to see us go all out for the fa cup and europa league should we qualify.We need to start somewhere and poch needs to win some silverware.
 
I personally never expected a title challenge of any sort - like you, I'm leaning towards last season as being one where we performed as we always do (at par with past performances, reaching 70 points, which is a total we've usually hovered around in recent seasons) but got rewarded for staying consistent while everyone else faltered. However, I *do* absolutely expect Poch to exceed that total this year - 73 points or more should be the aim, since, despite the disparity between us and the rest of the top six, Poch got more to spend in terms of net spending than *any* of his predecessors over the last six years, and thus should have more to show for it.

Alternatively, go for glory in a trophy and I won't care how he does in the league. But here, I think he'll consistently disappoint me given how he apparently views cup competitions with such disdain. So the former remains the target. That I expect - and that is something we're *just* on course to achieve if we keep this standard of performances up through the season, so nothing is so bad yet that it needs apocalyptic talk of sacking him or whatever, if it *does* seriously arise.

@DubaiSpur i posted this yesterday.....

You must realise two things dictate team selection....injuries and objectives.

We were going for the league last season also safe in the knowledge that CL qualification was a nailed on consolation (hence f*cking off the EL last year). Same team, a single focus = league.

Injuries have largely forced us to change the team (and system) this year. The objective being the league and secondary the CL league group. The other night showed that any hint of doing well in the CL has evaporated as an objective (probably well before we kicked off in Monaco) and all thoughts were focused on the league.

We will have an objective to do well in the EL. 1 because it is a feasible route into the CL and 2 because the PL does look challenging this year. We dont start in the EL until mid feb and the objective will be assessed round by round ( we could have f*cked the league by feb??)

You might not like it. (i dont particuarly) BUT you have to accept it.

Levy likes it, and he likes Poch because he accepts it.

And too add......

Sadly (from a glorious football perspective) it is very business driven. Targets, objectives, masterplans.
The main objective is CL qualification,(end of) because of the money it brings.
A net spend on transfers if we can. Focus on young players that can be developed and if they turn out seriously good sell them for massive profit (realistically we still cant keep these players).

We can run a good team (just like Monaco, Lever, A.Madrid) because we do buy well (sorry if its not 100% strike rate) and we have a manger that is talented (BUT young) and can organise a team and get it to be competitive in a very tough market. As the OP points out 5 big teams are way ahead of us in expenditure and all are managed by world top 10 managers.

Its very emotionless by definition, so contrary to what we as glory glory tottenham fans know and love. We want the swashbuckling, humdinger games and the chase for silverware.

Levy (and Poch) have a plan. A top table team in the best stadium in europe. That is a massive task given its's full of uncontrollables, uneven playing fields and bumps in the road. But that overall objective is set.

The stadium will cost a fortune. Levy is working his arse off to try and get other people to pay for it. Poch is helping with this.

Emotion will only knock you off course or waiver. It's hard (as a fan) because it is a long road.

As i said above you might not like it BUT you have to accept it. Its the only way to get where we want to. It could be boring, it will do your head in BUT if we get there it will be one of the greatest business AND footballing acheivements in history.

I stick with it because i believe in Levy and Poch as two of the best people we could have on board.

To do it organically and on our terms will rightfully gives us carte blanche to lourd it over all and sundry.




 
It seems like there's a lot of negativity among us Spurs fans at the moment. Which is understandable, given our awful recent run in all competitions, culminating in our early exit from the CL. And it's also understandable that we try and explain our unusually poor form, and that this inevitably leads to questions about the manager, the dressing room, and the players' mentality. But I think the truth is much simpler, and is something that we need to constantly remind ourselves of:

We are trying to compete for 4 league spots against 5 other teams, all of whom have spent way more money than us! Here's a reminder of net transfer fee spend over the last 9 seasons, and wage bill this season:

Emirates Marketing Project: 779m / 225m
Chelsea: 397m / 218m
United: 414m / 221m
Arsenal: 161m / 201m
Liverpool: 153m / 166m
Tottenham: 14m / 121m

The difference is absurd! We're in such a difficult (and unique) position because we're a bigger club than the rest of the teams in the league, but we're just nowhere near the top 5 spenders in wages and transfer expenditure. So we're in our own little impossible bubble, expecting and expected to compete with the other superclubs, despite having nowhere near the resources.

This might all be very obvious; and of course it doesn't mean that we should just accept and be happy with losing to those fudgers, and/or just accept our lot as perennial Europa league qualifiers. It's natural that we all feel so frustrated and disappointed with how things have gone recently. But let's at least try and bear the facts in mind, and so get behind the team with pride for what we're striving to achieve, rather than becoming blindly obsessed with competing for the CL without acknowleding that the odds are so stacked against us. As per another thread, a start would be not having such an embarassing fudging atmosphere at WHL during one of the club's most successful periods in recent memory.

This season

I think this fundamental point is the foundation for our recent struggle in form, played out as follows:
- Because of our recent history as a club, we expect and are expected to compete with 5 other clubs for the CL, despite spending far less money than them
- This dynamic was magnified last season, after genuinely challenging (at least mathematically) for the title, which has raised expectations even higher for this season
- Those magnified expectations are misplaced though - we only got 70 points last season, which often would have seen us finishing 5th or even 6th - or at best, certainly nowhere near challenging for the title
- And we're in more difficult circumstances this year - we've had injuries to all of our key players (which we were very lucky to avoid last year), and we've had to stretch our squad against higher quality competition in the CL than EL

So essentially we've had even more articifically raised expectations than normal, and an even more challenging context in which to meet them, and I think the combination of those two things has then led to a young team having serious struggles with confidence. Which naturally might also have led to struggles to maintain the physical energy that Poch demands in his training and matches.

Of course I'm not trying to argue that the manager and players should be 100% free of criticism. No doubt they've made mistakes. But that doesn't mean those mistakes are the main reason we're not challenging more in the league and CL. Though it hurts and is disheartening to hear Poch talking down our quality and our chances to succeed at this level in the PL and CL, I think there's truth in it - and maybe he's trying to do the right thing by tempering expectations and reducing unrealistic pressure on a young and burned out squad.

I'll just finish by saying that on balance we still have a very talented young manager and team, with key players under contract and keen to stay, and a big new stadium on the way. As fans, let's not ruin all of that by sinking into a spiral of unwarranted negativity that drags the club down with it, just as we're on the cusp of a financial position that will allow us to truly compete with these other fudgers. More than anyone else we are the ones who have to shake the club's tradition of crumbling under pressure, because we are the only thing that is permanent. And judging by the atmosphere at WHL, we are failing. So let's fudging get behind our young team and manager, and make the Lane a fudging fortress whilst we still can. COYS.

What a fantastic post.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
I get the point you're making, but @Modric THFC had it right when he pointed out that we pay far more in wages than both Leverkusen and Monaco, two comparable teams on a similar level to us, and yet they pretty much schooled the team and Poch comprehensively over the games we played against them. @spurs' magna carter then points out that money isn't everything, and that they are both really good sides - granted, but then, the same applies to us, doesn't it? Or are we in a warp where we are simultaneously inferior to all the teams that spend more than us and still can be beaten by teams that spend less than us but are 'bloody good teams'?

We have the youngest squad in the league, granted - but Monaco and Leverkusen weren't exactly filled with OAPs when they comfortably schooled our lads. We have had injuries - but so have they (although our reliance on Toby meant that the inevitable injury to him was going to screw us up, admittedly). The rest of @spurs' magna carter 's points apply to the Premier League, save for Wembley - and at Wembley, the question should be about *why* we're shrinking into our shadows there.

The key to turning this around is to recognize that mistakes have been made - the management, the players and the fans have all made mistakes over the course of the past week. *No one* is exempt from criticism about this - no one's sacred idols are worth staying mum over.

Poch hasn't been very ready to admit that he got things wrong in public (except when he said he'd take the criticism for rotating against Monaco, which is the right thing to do, so good on him for that), but I hope...I *believe* that he sees that we have problems in terms of approach, implementation and energy that he'll try to rectify behind closed doors.

I personally never expected a title challenge of any sort - like you, I'm leaning towards last season as being one where we performed as we always do (at par with past performances, reaching 70 points, which is a total we've usually hovered around in recent seasons) but got rewarded for staying consistent while everyone else faltered. However, I *do* absolutely expect Poch to exceed that total this year - 73 points or more should be the aim, since, despite the disparity between us and the rest of the top six, Poch got more to spend in terms of net spending than *any* of his predecessors over the last six years, and thus should have more to show for it.

Alternatively, go for glory in a trophy and I won't care how he does in the league. But here, I think he'll consistently disappoint me given how he apparently views cup competitions with such disdain. So the former remains the target. That I expect - and that is something we're *just* on course to achieve if we keep this standard of performances up through the season, so nothing is so bad yet that it needs apocalyptic talk of sacking him or whatever, if it *does* seriously arise.

Firstly, let me say that I don't think that our opinions / analyses are too far apart from each other - I think maybe you just tend to focus on the negative in your posts, which leads to me emphasise the positive for the sake of balance :p

To reply just on the Monaco / Leverkeusen point: Of course I didn't mean to suggest that results are totally dictated by expenditure. I meant that for us I think there's this more specific and systematic issue that we spend less money than 5 other domestic clubs, but year-on-year are expected to compete with them, and more often-than-not fail to, and that this has a more entrenched and long-term impact on the club's mindset and mentality. And that this pressure has contributed to a dip in confidence amongst the players during our awful patch of recent form, including the CL.

Also worth saying that both Monaco and Leverkeusen have more recent experience of CL than us, and less competitive environments in their domestic leagues, both of which might arguably have reduced the pressure on them in the CL in comparison to us (and so mitigated the difference in wage expenditure to some extent).

So I think there are other factors that exacerbate our domestic competitors' extra spending over ours, and other factors that mitigate our extra spending over our CL rivals.

Still, as I said, not personally trying to suggest that Poch and the players shouldn't be subjected to valid and constructive criticism. Indeed there's a few Poch decisions I disagree with (playing Dier at CB, changing to the diamond formation, rotating for CL rather than vice versa). Just trying to put things into perspective.
 
Let not forget Chelsea, Liverpool , city and united all dropped out of the cl at the group stage in recent years.

Leicester showing everyone the way, which is give it 100% and don't seek out hard lessons you don't need to learn.

The t.v. money for english clubs will be a lot less thanks to Leicester and the small viewing figures, next time it comes to be renewed.
 
Personally it is all down to the players we sign, and our recent record is of overspending on players that might have the potential to step up but are not showing the signs of doing so.

In the summer I would like to think we will sign on a bosman, Berahino and last summer we should have signed Dembele for 3.5m but instead we spent 18m on Janssen. Bad bad business.
 
I think we are gonna win our next 3 home games (3 of the next 4 games are at home), the injuries will clear up and, all of a sudden, we'll be optimistic again.
 
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