Omt - Tottenham vs Boro

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed. I think the 3-4-3 doesn’t suit him unfortunately - he’s at his best in space, running behind the defence or running at the full-back. He’s just not as effective in those congested areas between the lines. (At least that’s what I think when I watch us, but as you say his goals and assists are pretty decent, so maybe I’m wrong).

The formation shouldnt affect his ability to control a ball
It’s his strength normally

 

[braineclipse]

We look mentally drained as soon as something goes against us.

We've bounced back quite a bit both in games and between games recently. Leicester and Emirates Marketing Project the biggest examples.

Things didn't really go against us at first against Boro. Sure we didn't score, but we looked solid at the back and were rarely threatened until later in the game.

To me we just didn't have the energy. There have been reports about a lack of intensity in training under Nuno and IIRC Mourinho.

We started running a lot more under Conte. Been some draining games. I think physically several of our players aren't fit enough to play all the time when games come twice a week.

I take positives from our efforts last night, looked to me that we really tried. Just didn't have the energy to match Boro. That's fixable through rotation, less fixture congestion and more quality options come the summer.

I don't think it's mentality as such.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We've bounced back quite a bit both in games and between games recently. Leicester and Emirates Marketing Project the biggest examples.

Things didn't really go against us at first against Boro. Sure we didn't score, but we looked solid at the back and were rarely threatened until later in the game.

To me we just didn't have the energy. There have been reports about a lack of intensity in training under Nuno and IIRC Mourinho.

We started running a lot more under Conte. Been some draining games. I think physically several of our players aren't fit enough to play all the time when games come twice a week.

I take positives from our efforts last night, looked to me that we really tried. Just didn't have the energy to match Boro. That's fixable through rotation, less fixture congestion and more quality options come the summer.

I don't think it's mentality as such.

I agree
The effort was there, the intensity wasn’t
Very different things
And we have come back in enough games to not have the mentally drained thing IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

If we replace Kane with a player of lower technical ability but higher 'mental ability' (whatever that is) then we'll simply create and score less goals and operate even lower down the table.... There are 10 other players in the team and 24 other players in the squad that we should look to replace before we get onto Kane.

Of course if we consider ourselves to be truly fudged in terms of our squad and desperately need funds for a complete rebuild and we accept that Kane is one of the only players we could sell who would generate significant funds then that is another argument but, nobody should kid themselves that we could sell Kane, buy a replacement and our team be better off in any way.

There's only hugo, dier, kane and son left from peak Poch years and yet we keep coming up short in the same manner.
We had the best defence in the country, a formidable DM pairing, a midfield that created loads of chances, a forwards that scored a lot of goals, and best of them all harry kane.
Still won zip, still couldn't get over the line, still failed.
Arsenal won f a cups in that time.
Where they better than us?
That's the mentality I'm talking about.
I am not denigrating harry kane, but it is not working, and he has been here long enough now that he has to be considered part of the problem.
Who's the better, more gifted player, harry kane or Jamie vardy?
Who played in the better team?
Who has the medals?
As i say not all Kane fault, but he ain’t faultless.
We are 7th at the moment, not sure where our next win is coming from, are these the players we want digging us out a hole?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There's only hugo, dier, kane and son left from peak Poch years and yet we keep coming up short in the same manner.
We had the best defence in the country, a formidable DM pairing, a midfield that created loads of chances, a forwards that scored a lot of goals, and best of them all harry kane.
Still won zip, still couldn't get over the line, still failed.
Arsenal won f a cups in that time.
Where they better than us?
That's the mentality I'm talking about.
I am not denigrating harry kane, but it is not working, and he has been here long enough now that he has to be considered part of the problem.
Who's the better, more gifted player, harry kane or Jamie vardy?
Who played in the better team?
Who has the medals?
As i say not all Kane fault, but he ain’t faultless.
We are 7th at the moment, not sure where our next win is coming from, are these the players we want digging us out a hole?

Our next win is coming Monday
I can name you 10 players off the top of my head who have won big medals but fans wouldn’t want them near the side

 

[glasgowspur]

Our next win is coming Monday
I can name you 10 players off the top of my head who have won big medals but fans wouldn’t want them near the side

Normally I'd expect us to win against Everton, byt you just know the ref and var will fudge us over to make it up to Everton.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Normally I'd expect us to win against Everton, byt you just know the ref and var will fudge us over to make it up to Everton.

Nah we will win
We will have had a rest and be fine

 

[stratnumberone]

I think if there was var and got the lines out both goals would have been disallowed.

But you are right in the commentary they just said kane was just off and the boro player was just onside, but only for their magic narrative.

It doesn’t excuse how poor the performance was or change the clear fact that Boro deserved to win… however, it was painfully clear that the narrative from the TV coverage was for a home win. I get it, I really do. I’d have wanted the same thing if I was a neutral. Nonetheless, it’s their job to be impartial and they failed miserably. I barely saw a replay of Kanes ‘goal’ and the discussion about whether or not it should have been allowed was remarkably brief. Same goes for a penalty shout we had in the first half - I didn’t see a replay at all of that one. The thing that really got me was the ref blowing up 2:58 seconds into the ‘minimum’ 3 minutes added time at the end, despite their keeper having laid on the ground for at least 30 seconds. Would we have scored if he had played the correct amount of added time? Probably not. But let’s not forget that we scored twice in under 30 seconds recently and - more to the point - it’s their bloody job to ensure that the added time is, err, added correctly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

There's only hugo, dier, kane and son left from peak Poch years and yet we keep coming up short in the same manner.
We had the best defence in the country, a formidable DM pairing, a midfield that created loads of chances, a forwards that scored a lot of goals, and best of them all harry kane.
Still won zip, still couldn't get over the line, still failed.
Arsenal won f a cups in that time.
Where they better than us?
That's the mentality I'm talking about.
I am not denigrating harry kane, but it is not working, and he has been here long enough now that he has to be considered part of the problem.
Who's the better, more gifted player, harry kane or Jamie vardy?
Who played in the better team?
Who has the medals?
As i say not all Kane fault, but he ain’t faultless.
We are 7th at the moment, not sure where our next win is coming from, are these the players we want digging us out a hole?

Under Pochettino we had a brilliant manger overseeing a talented first team who he had coached into an excellent unit, but a small squad that was competing across a high number of competitions. Finishing in the top 4 was clearly the priority and we achieved that goal every single year after he'd had his initial year to weed out the wasters.

Due to the fact that we were in European competition every year and also often did quite well in the domestic Cups our small squad had to play a high number of games, this meant that our small squad would typically be fatigued towards the end of the season when competitions are decided. Unlike some of our rivals we were unable to focus on just a single competition. I'm sure we would've won at least one and probably more than one trophy had we completely prioritised these over our league form (as for example Chelsea, Man Utd and even Arsenal did at times during the Poch years, and worth noting that all three of these teams were operating a wage bill that was well in excess of ours).

Since those Pochettino years we have clearly declined. The club have purchased players while never really seeming to have an actual strategy. We have carried out numerous partial rebuilds under a new manager and then sacked that manager, so that several of the players signed for that manager became unsuited for the plans of the new manager. I expect we'll rinse and repeat that same thing with Conte when he walks, with the next manager taking us over having a completely different system to Conte's 3-4-3.

As we now have a bunch of players not really suited to the current manager's gameplan, we have slipped from an average league position of 3rd under Pochettino to 6th/7th now under Conte.

If we sold Kane and replaced him with another player and did nothing else then I suspect our average 6th/7th position (that is actually about par for the resources the owners provide for the first team squad) we're achieving at the moment would drop at least a few places and IMO we would drop right into the bottom half of the table.

If on the other hand we kept Kane but brought in 2 more centre backs who can actually play a proper part in our attacking play (as is necessary in Conte's system), a right wing back who is a genuine attacking threat, at least one central midfield player who can receive the ball in tight spaces, break a press and pass progressively as well as break up play and another option at number 9 so that Kane can get the odd rest or even play some games as a number 10, then I think we might have a chance of bettering our 6th place par finish.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It doesn’t excuse how poor the performance was or change the clear fact that Boro deserved to win… however, it was painfully clear that the narrative from the TV coverage was for a home win. I get it, I really do. I’d have wanted the same thing if I was a neutral. Nonetheless, it’s their job to be impartial and they failed miserably. I barely saw a replay of Kanes ‘goal’ and the discussion about whether or not it should have been allowed was remarkably brief. Same goes for a penalty shout we had in the first half - I didn’t see a replay at all of that one. The thing that really got me was the ref blowing up 2:58 seconds into the ‘minimum’ 3 minutes added time at the end, despite their keeper having laid on the ground for at least 30 seconds. Would we have scored if he had played the correct amount of added time? Probably not. But let’s not forget that we scored twice in under 30 seconds recently and - more to the point - it’s their bloody job to ensure that the added time is, err, added correctly.

They did show a replay of our penalty shout.... It showed it was a very good tackle (and therefore no real need to show repeated replays of it).

 

[FatBloke]

It doesn’t excuse how poor the performance was or change the clear fact that Boro deserved to win… however, it was painfully clear that the narrative from the TV coverage was for a home win. I get it, I really do. I’d have wanted the same thing if I was a neutral. Nonetheless, it’s their job to be impartial and they failed miserably. I barely saw a replay of Kanes ‘goal’ and the discussion about whether or not it should have been allowed was remarkably brief. Same goes for a penalty shout we had in the first half - I didn’t see a replay at all of that one. The thing that really got me was the ref blowing up 2:58 seconds into the ‘minimum’ 3 minutes added time at the end, despite their keeper having laid on the ground for at least 30 seconds. Would we have scored if he had played the correct amount of added time? Probably not. But let’s not forget that we scored twice in under 30 seconds recently and - more to the point - it’s their bloody job to ensure that the added time is, err, added correctly.

Indeed. All the neutrals want to see the underdog win, and that's fair enough. Boro did their best to ramp up the home advantage with a slick and slippery pitch, and also by bringing the sidelines in by at least a couple of metres. While there's always an element of feeling that ones own team is being screwed by the referee, I really do think he got absolutely hoodwinked by the home team's play-acting. Why didn't that taco Jones get a yellow card for his clear dive in the box, for example?

While our performance definitely wasn't great, we did create some good chances. If Doherty had passed to Son rather than skied his shot on goal (or had even shown some basic pro footballer skills in being able to hit an open goal from that distance), we may well have run away with it. Sonny and Kane had other chances that they'd normally have put away too.

I do think Conte should have changed something up sooner, and that seems to be a running theme.

The silver lining for me is that our run-in won't be as congested and the players can really hammer it to try and get top 4. It's looking unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

 

[glasgowspur]

Under Pochettino we had a brilliant manger overseeing a talented first team who he had coached into an excellent unit, but a small squad that was competing across a high number of competitions. Finishing in the top 4 was clearly the priority and we achieved that goal every single year after he'd had his initial year to weed out the wasters.

Due to the fact that we were in European competition every year and also often did quite well in the domestic Cups our small squad had to play a high number of games, this meant that our small squad would typically be fatigued towards the end of the season when competitions are decided. Unlike some of our rivals we were unable to focus on just a single competition. I'm sure we would've won at least one and probably more than one trophy had we completely prioritised these over our league form (as for example Chelsea, Man Utd and even Arsenal did at times during the Poch years, and worth noting that all three of these teams were operating a wage bill that was well in excess of ours).

Since those Pochettino years we have clearly declined. The club have purchased players while never really seeming to have an actual strategy. We have carried out numerous partial rebuilds under a new manager and then sacked that manager, so that several of the players signed for that manager became unsuited for the plans of the new manager. I expect we'll rinse and repeat that same thing with Conte when he walks, with the next manager taking us over having a completely different system to Conte's 3-4-3.

As we now have a bunch of players not really suited to the current manager's gameplan, we have slipped from an average league position of 3rd under Pochettino to 6th/7th now under Conte.

If we sold Kane and replaced him with another player and did nothing else then I suspect our average 6th/7th position (that is actually about par for the resources the owners provide for the first team squad) we're achieving at the moment would drop at least a few places and IMO we would drop right into the bottom half of the table.

If on the other hand we kept Kane but brought in 2 more centre backs who can actually play a proper part in our attacking play (as is necessary in Conte's system), a right wing back who is a genuine attacking threat, at least one central midfield player who can receive the ball in tight spaces, break a press and pass progressively as well as break up play and another option at number 9 so that Kane can get the odd rest or even play some games as a number 10, then I think we might have a chance of bettering our 6th place par finish.

I agree with your first paragraph, not so much with second, 100% with the next two, not so much with the last three.
As i keep saying Kane is the headline but not my story, its them all, and unlike others I see no reason to exclude kane. Or son. Or hugo. Or dier.
We aren't in a position to keep rolling the dice and hope these players are up to it.
They are all getting on, possibly dier would be ok, and a rebuild is needed, do it now.

 

[billyiddo]

There's only hugo, dier, kane and son left from peak Poch years and yet we keep coming up short in the same manner.

This is incorrect as we aren't coming up short atm, we just don't have a team or squad good enough to be expected to go the distance.

Under Poch we had a couple of years where the first XI was good enough but we came up short because the squad wasn't deep enough/the team was beat on the day by a similarly strong team, it happens. We then weakened the first XI without strengthening the squad depth on paper, so we missed out then but because we were weaker as a team/squad, not for the same reasons we did previously - we then weakened the team even further, which brings us to where we are now.

 

[glasgowspur]

This is incorrect as we aren't coming up short atm, we just don't have a team or squad good enough to be expected to go the distance.

Under Poch we had a couple of years where the first XI was good enough but we came up short because the squad wasn't deep enough/the team was beat on the day by a similarly strong team, it happens. We then weakened the first XI without strengthening the squad depth on paper, so we missed out then but because we were weaker as a team/squad, not for the same reasons we did previously - we then weakened the team even further, which brings us to where we are now.

Getting knocked out of the cups by Norwich, Middlesbrough, and out of Europe by vitesse is not because of our squad depth.
Especially not when we are seventh in the league.
These players are too comfortable here now with too many ready excuses.

 

[FatBloke]

Getting knocked out of the cups by Norwich, Middlesbrough, and out of Europe by vitesse is not because of our squad depth.
Especially not when we are seventh in the league.
These players are too comfortable here now with too many ready excuses.

Exactly. Man for man, our players are easily good enough to have won those games. It's the mentality that's missing.

We need a strong leader who won't take any brick. A Roy Keane type who'll drag his teammates through the tough games. Dier on form has elements of that. Kane and Lloris do not. I thought Hojbjerg was that missing piece, but he's been terrible this season -- honestly, what's happened to him? I think Skippy might have it though.

 

[glasgowspur]

Exactly. Man for man, our players are easily good enough to have won those games. It's the mentality that's missing.

We need a strong leader who won't take any brick. A Roy Keane type who'll drag his teammates through the tough games. Dier on form has elements of that. Kane and Lloris do not. I thought Hojbjerg was that missing piece, but he's been terrible this season -- honestly, what's happened to him? I think Skippy might have it though.

Skipp is a perrymann, mabbutt lead by example type.
To my mind thats also what hugo and harry try and do.
Don’t think it works in our situation.
Dier has a real Paddington stare about him, but i think he controls he real rage to well.
Let it loose eric, go on i dare you.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Skipp is a perrymann, mabbutt lead by example type.
To my mind thats also what hugo and harry try and do.
Don’t think it works in our situation.
Dier has a real Paddington stare about him, but i think he controls he real rage to well.
Let it loose eric, go on i dare you.

And we know he can do it - think of the incident with his brother in the stands!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Getting knocked out of the cups by Norwich, Middlesbrough, and out of Europe by vitesse is not because of our squad depth.
Especially not when we are seventh in the league.
These players are too comfortable here now with too many ready excuses.

You forgetting Gent in the recent past
And we weren’t knocked out by Vitesse as we couldn’t actually play to qualify but I do get your logic

 

[glasgowspur]

You forgetting Gent in the recent past
And we weren’t knocked out by Vitesse as we couldn’t actually play to qualify but I do get your logic

I knew it was a team we should have beat but couldn't remember who.
I'd like to say its because it happens so often its difficult to remember, but actually its an age thing.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Getting knocked out of the cups by Norwich, Middlesbrough, and out of Europe by vitesse is not because of our squad depth.
Especially not when we are seventh in the league.
These players are too comfortable here now with too many ready excuses.

We lose games we shouldn’t and occasionally win games we shouldn’t win because we are an average mid table side, inconsistency comes with the territory. Kane and Son are world class, the rest range from good, to ok, to average, to very poor. As I said before, we don’t have the depth like Eriksen and Alli mk I to bail us out when Kane and Son are off form. And the defence isn’t good enough to eek out a 1-0 or a even a 0-0 if we are under the cosh. We failed to turn up to the majority of the big games under Poch and highlighting Kane’s ineffectiveness in said big games is a fair argument but that’s a totally different discussion to the one we are having now. We’re just simply a mid table team with two world class players.