****OMT***** Tottenham Hotspur vs. West Bromwich Albion - 26/12/13: 3pm

[glorygloryeze]

I said that even after the Emirates Marketing Project game, but the accumulation of shocking results was impossible to ignore or accept.

Liverpool had their 2nd best striker injured and one of their most influential midfielders, Gerrard is a shadow of the player he was 4 years ago, but he's still a driving force for them. It makes it even worse that we had so many injuries at CB and yet AVB STILL persisted with the high line with a slow centre back and DM playing out of position. It's those kind of **** ups that are continually glossed over by some of AVB's backers.

But those ****-ups could have been ironed out; as they often were last season, when for example AVB played a deep defence against Liverpool at home because he had Dawson and Galas up against Suarez, Sterling and co. We rode the storm for 3 points that day (and I remember loads complaining about the performance then and not acknowledging the tactical tweaks that AVB had put into our play).
But I guess if a fan hates AVB you'll only notice the obvious negatives and trot out all the high-line stuff etc etc

 

[scaramanga]

See that's where we disagree, losing 1-0 or even 2-0 to Liverpool is nothing to be embarrassed about, losing 5-0 which could have conceivably been 10-0 is frankly humiliating. Heavy defeats are psychological blows. The Emirates Marketing Project defeat could have also been even worse. It's the defeats and also the manner of the defeats. More unlucky losses like the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game rather than drubbings might not have saved his job, but he would have had more of a leg to stand on.

What has your embarrassment got to do with finishing 4th or higher though?

We bounced back from big losses so they clearly weren't affecting the team.

 

[glorygloryeze]

See that's where we disagree, losing 1-0 or even 2-0 to Liverpool is nothing to be embarrassed about, losing 5-0 which could have conceivably been 10-0 is frankly humiliating. Heavy defeats are psychological blows. The Emirates Marketing Project defeat could have also been even worse. It's the defeats and also the manner of the defeats. More unlucky losses like the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game rather than drubbings might not have saved his job, but he would have had more of a leg to stand on.

Out of interest, what was your reaction when we lost 3-0 and then 5-1 to the Mancs in the first couple of games of the 11/12 season?
Did you want Redknapp gone at that point?

 

[Jurgen the German]

AVB had proved this season and last that after bad results he could get the team playing again and get wins soon afterwards. Arsenal lost 8-2 a couple of years ago and they stuck with their (trophyless-after-6-years) manager.
If we were going to even think about firing AVB after he won 8 our of 16 matches, losing 5, we should have only done so with a replacement who was clearly an upgrade immediately ready to replace him.

We are in a shambles right now, make no mistake

You may have a point about the next manage being an upgrade, I argued the point many times that I didn't see AVB as a step up to Redknapp but I conceded that he deserved at least one full season, possibly two results permitting.

I don't know if we're in any more of a shambles now than we were when we lost 5-0 and 6-0. We may very well turn out to be.

 

[DHSF]

Hey, like you I'm a man of big big optimism, but even I can see the massive car crash on the motorway ahead

The the car crash isnt solely due to TS but would be a culmination of what has gone on in the past and present.

If someone gives you a car that has something inherently wrong with it then no matter how well you drive it, it will still veer left, right, still splutter and still not travel at full throttle... and may or may not crash.

This isnt about TS by the way, this is merely about spurs and hope.

 

[Pirate55]

Actually debate what I have said rather than painting me as something I'm not. I even said in the post you're referring to that of course Sherwood needs time and I'm confident it will get better under him for goodness sake!

For all the doubters, please repeat this line 100 times before bed every evening.

If that is good enough for BoL, then it should be alright for all like minded fans.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Out of interest, what was your reaction when we lost 3-0 and then 5-1 to the Mancs in the first couple of games of the 11/12 season?
Did you want Redknapp gone at that point?

My reaction after the United game was disappointment but not too much surprise as we have an awful record at OT. The Emirates Marketing Project game was bad one I must admit, even though they were truly awesome that day, it wasn't good enough. I didn't want him gone because we had our season disrupted by a completely unforseeable event (Tottenham riots) and we had spent **** all at that point, typical Levy leaving it until 11:59pm on deadline day, we had Modric on strike at OT and had to play Livermore and Kranjcar in the middle, would Parker have made a difference? Who knows but we could have done with a proper defensive midfielder. Wanting someone gone after two league games is crazy unless we lost by 7/8/9 goals. AVB on the other hand was given over £100m to spend, whether they were all his signings is another matter entirely, yet another point we should take up with Levy.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You may have a point about the next manage being an upgrade, I argued the point many times that I didn't see AVB as a step up to Redknapp but I conceded that he deserved at least one full season, possibly two results permitting.

I don't know if we're in any more of a shambles now than we were when we lost 5-0 and 6-0. We may very well turn out to be.

JTG, I made the point in the home form thread, but what do you think the reasons for the hammerings were? To me, it was the fault of the system. Not that it is inherently flawed in my opinion (because it worked in other games both against good teams and lesser teams) but that we were inconsistent with it because of the amount of new players coming together.

So if it was a day when it wasn't going to click, it really wasn't going to click. But most of the time, If we needed to score or create chances, we would. If we needed to be solid, we would be. The problem to me was the system not clicking, and if that is the problem it suggests that as the players get to know each other and their instructions more clearly throughout the season, the inconsistency with it is reduced. So in the grand scheme of things, the hammerings never really bothered me. I'd be more concerned where we told to play a controlled game but actually ended up in a 4-3 end to end slugfest that we lost, because it would show the players aren't trying to play the system. Or I'd be more concerned if we simply weren't creating chances when needed (Like Wigan at home last year, REALLY bad). But if the system was clicking, we'd be performing ok. If it wasn't, we'd be shocking.

But that's why I believe it would have got better as the season progressed. Hammerings weren't the reason to get rid, because we were still recovering from them and winning games in the matches following. It was just inconsistency, and we had a glaring reason for it.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But those ****-ups could have been ironed out; as they often were last season, when for example AVB played a deep defence against Liverpool at home because he had Dawson and Galas up against Suarez, Sterling and co. We rode the storm for 3 points that day (and I remember loads complaining about the performance then and not acknowledging the tactical tweaks that AVB had put into our play).
But I guess if a fan hates AVB you'll only notice the obvious negatives and trot out all the high-line stuff etc etc

I don't hate him, but he was getting more things wrong than right this season.

 

[glorygloryeze]

You may have a point about the next manage being an upgrade, I argued the point many times that I didn't see AVB as a step up to Redknapp but I conceded that he deserved at least one full season, possibly two results permitting.

I don't know if we're in any more of a shambles now than we were when we lost 5-0 and 6-0. We may very well turn out to be.

If our CL had been secured, and Redknapp had shown that he could manage a large squad and we were not about to lose Modric, King et al I would maybe have agreed that AVB may not have been necessary. However, with the effects of not getting CL having the effect that it did, I think we needed to move to somehow who could build a squad and team system and so I was on board with having someone like AVB who would be better at managing and building the SQUAD, plus approaching things in a more organic way.
Basically I felt we couldn't afford the Redknapp model ant more.
But perhaps that's one of those larger discussions to be had elsewhere.

No, I think we really are in a shambles right now because:

- we have a squad of multiple nationalities, who could do with being managed by a multi-linguist like AVB
- we need a left-back and possibly another striker in Jan - in a World Cup season why would anyone come to us now ("I've heard of David Moyes, but who is this Sherwood you speak of?")
- I cannot see how Sherwood will go toe-to-tow with Wenger at the Emirates and that will make the above even more difficult (what with our season being effectively over and all)
- Is Sherwood Baldini's man? You'd have to doubt it given that he offered to resign after AVB's sacking

 

[Jurgen the German]

What has your embarrassment got to do with finishing 4th or higher though?

We bounced back from big losses so they clearly weren't affecting the team.

I could see more of those heavy defeats coming, there comes a point where too many heavy defeats take it's toll. I can't say for certain that we would have missed out on the top 4, but I couldn't see us pulling it off. I think there comes a point where the players would have lost confidence in the manager and we were close to reaching that point, Lloris said they jacked it against Liverpool.

 

[scaramanga]

I could see more of those heavy defeats coming, there comes a point where too many heavy defeats take it's toll. I can't say for certain that we would have missed out on the top 4, but I couldn't see us pulling it off.

Maybe more would be coming. At that point in the season though, there was nothing to suggest we'd finish this season with more losses than last, so in anything other than the incredibly unlikely scenario of us finishing level on points with a team in 1st-4th then it wouldn't matter.

 

[Jurgen the German]

JTG, I made the point in the home form thread, but what do you think the reasons for the hammerings were? To me, it was the fault of the system. Not that it is inherently flawed in my opinion (because it worked in other games both against good teams and lesser teams) but that we were inconsistent with it because of the amount of new players coming together.

So if it was a day when it wasn't going to click, it really wasn't going to click. But most of the time, If we needed to score or create chances, we would. If we needed to be solid, we would be. The problem to me was the system not clicking, and if that is the problem it suggests that as the players get to know each other and their instructions more clearly throughout the season, the inconsistency with it is reduced. So in the grand scheme of things, the hammerings never really bothered me. I'd be more concerned where we told to play a controlled game but actually ended up in a 4-3 end to end slugfest that we lost, because it would show the players aren't trying to play the system. Or I'd be more concerned if we simply weren't creating chances when needed (Like Wigan at home last year, REALLY bad). But if the system was clicking, we'd be performing ok. If it wasn't, we'd be shocking.

But that's why I believe it would have got better as the season progressed. Hammerings weren't the reason to get rid, because we were still recovering from them and winning games in the matches following. It was just inconsistency, and we had a glaring reason for it.

Where do I start? :

Picking the wrong players for the system e.g. slow centre backs

Giving Lamela his first start against the best team in the league AWAY FROM HOME and out of position and wrong selections in general

Not getting enough players forward and in the box when attacking

Making the wrong substitutions e.g. taking Naughton off against Liverpool

Picking players for two games in 4 days when Europa qualifiication had already been secured.

 

[Nigeyman]

Oh Lordy Lord.........

By all accounts it didnt look like AVB wanted to fight for his job anyway.......hence the mutual consent decision, who knows what went on after pool in the evening and following morning.......I was a big fan of AVB.....I was desperate for him to suceed here.....I loved his passion from the touchline last season....but that seemed to be missing this season....if you ask me he never quite recovered from the whole Bale thing..........

Basically WHATS THE POINT in going on about AVB anymore.....personally I Just want to forget!!!!

Lets get some bloody perspective here.....for months we have been playing like strangers for the most part......while we all woop wooped at the time (me included) seven new signings were always going to take time to bed in.....(especially as none of them were PL proven).

Basically if it was meant to be AVB would still be here....the fates have not been kind....but for Gawds sake it was Levy's deciscion and he should be big enough and clever enough not to be swayed by one individual......again I believe....though I cant offer proof that AVB could have carried on if he met Levy after pool and showed Levy he had the desire to turn it around......bottom line he didnt!!!! if the sacking was planned we would have had someone lined up....as it is Tim fills the breach...... The only difference between Tim and ALL the posters that were hammering AVB is that he is part of the club and yes he may have had Levy's ear.....how many of us would talk to Levy if we werent happy with something.......so basically

-Stop using Tim as the spacegoat for AVB being sacked........this is a pathetic ......Levy is his own man......basically its down on AVB he could have done more to still be here!!!!!
-Understand we have lots of injuries in key positions and players who are playing that should have been eased in......because they werent they are struggling.
-Understand that petty squabbling and entrenching in a 'team avb' or 'team sherwood is pointless

 

[glorygloryeze]

Where do I start? :

Picking the wrong players for the system e.g. slow centre backs

Giving Lamela his first start against the best team in the league AWAY FROM HOME and out of position and wrong selections in general

Not getting enough players forward and in the box when attacking

Making the wrong substitutions e.g. taking Naughton off against Liverpool

Picking players for two games in 4 days when Europa qualifiication had already been secured.

I was thinking 'fair point' to these and then I see the bolded bit and think wtf???

You think Naughton should have stayed on against Liverpool??

 

[Stenno]

Apparently excessive use of exclamation points is a sure sign of insanity / unbalanced personality.

 

[Jurgen the German]

If our CL had been secured, and Redknapp had shown that he could manage a large squad and we were not about to lose Modric, King et al I would maybe have agreed that AVB may not have been necessary. However, with the effects of not getting CL having the effect that it did, I think we needed to move to somehow who could build a squad and team system and so I was on board with having someone like AVB who would be better at managing and building the SQUAD, plus approaching things in a more organic way.
Basically I felt we couldn't afford the Redknapp model ant more.
But perhaps that's one of those larger discussions to be had elsewhere.

No, I think we really are in a shambles right now because:

- we have a squad of multiple nationalities, who could do with being managed by a multi-linguist like AVB
- we need a left-back and possibly another striker in Jan - in a World Cup season why would anyone come to us now ("I've heard of David Moyes, but who is this Sherwood you speak of?")
- I cannot see how Sherwood will go toe-to-tow with Wenger at the Emirates and that will make the above even more difficult (what with our season being effectively over and all)
- Is Sherwood Baldini's man? You'd have to doubt it given that he offered to resign after AVB's sacking

Levy in my mind cost us in 3 consecutive January windows, two under Redknapp, one under AVB. Getting a striker was essential. We can argue till we're blue in the face about whether Redknapp was a success in terms of player purchases or not, but he still left AVB a squad that was top 5 level at worst, he didn't pull off any miracles by finishing 5th.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I was thinking 'fair point' to these and then I see the bolded bit and think wtf???

You think Naughton should have stayed on against Liverpool??

It was too little too late, shouldn't have started him in the first place. When you're losing 2-0 and you need goals you take a left back off and make a like for like sub? Yeah good one AVB. Poor selction but an even worse use of a sub.

 

[diego_maradona]

It was too little too late, shouldn't have started him in the first place. When you're losing 2-0 and you need goals you take a left back off and make a like for like sub? Yeah good one AVB. Poor selction but an even worse sub.

Wasn't he supposedly injured? Hasn't been fit since

 

[Jurgen the German]

Wasn't he supposedly injured? Hasn't been fit since

He was on the bench today that's all I know.