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***OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool***

Hootnow said:
I think we're a bit beyond this line tbh. We've got players who dive, players who leave boots in, we're amongst one of the most cynical teams in the league imo (and confirmed by quite a few objective non premier league fan friends.)

And I love it. I honestly don't care that Alli is a snide little taco. If he played for another team, I would undoubtedly hate him. But he doesn't so I don't. I don't care that Vertonghen loves off the ball stuff. I don't care that Dembele seems to have lost the plot a bit this season. Or that Lamela is great at tactical fouling.

I honestly don't. And I don't see why people should care. This idealised image some people seem to have of we should do it the right way. There is no right way. Part of our recent improvement has been how good we've become at cynical play. My only complaint is that we could be better at it at times and sometimes it hinders us (Alli's reputation now as a diver, our meltdown at the Bridge etc).

Excellent performance all in all imo. Were it not for Dier's brainfart early on, I think we could easily have gone on to win that. Typical Liverpool game plan really. Blitz you for the first 45-60 minutes and hope they've built iup enough of a lead to make them unreachable.

And the last minute goal was excellent bottle.

One of the clearest penalties I've ever seen and I have no idea what the Pool fans are complaining about.
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Great post. We are cynical. Jan is dirty when he wants and dives when it suits him. Rose can be nasty. Dembele gets booked regularly. Dier can be tough. Lamela and Alli are filthy. Alli, Lamela and Kane dive.

F**k it, all the great teams do it. We’ve been “it’s only Tottenham lads” for too long. We need a bit of steel and these boys bring it.

It’s noticeable in his book and in interviews that people say Poch is a cheat when he plays anything. Our players aren’t that way by chance.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I dont think we are that cynical.

No-nonsense, absolutely. Physical? Absolutely. Cynical? Ill reserve that for the like of Man U, any Moyes team, Arsenal when its not going their way, even Liverpool yesterday to a degree.
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Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I've tried looking at it objectively in a few matches recently and we have done some pretty cynical stuff. I am useless at remembering stuff even a few games ago, let alone before that so I'm not the best person to do this kind of thing but when you watch us, we actually are very cynical imo. And can be quite petulant if things aren't going our way.

The Kane and Sterling tackles at Emirates Marketing Project. The constant fouling we do as part of our press (which again, I love). The diving (not saying we're a prime Wenger team but we do it). The stuff Vertonghen and sometimes Lamela especially get involved in.

Certainly when things aren't going our way, I think we can become very petulant tbh.

Like I said though, O honestly don't care. I much prefer that to our not that long ago capitulations on a regular basis!
 
Im not really arguing in the main, we have an edge to us, and I love that.

Its probably just semantics. Cynical to me has fairly negative connotations. I prefer aggressive ;O)

Same as Ive always loved Argie players. Can play pretty like Brazil, but can also stand up and fight for a result. I see a lot of that Argie spirit in this team. It is most certainly Pochs side.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Great post. We are cynical. Jan is dirty when he wants and dives when it suits him. Rose can be nasty. Dembele gets booked regularly. Dier can be tough. Lamela and Alli are filthy. Alli, Lamela and Kane dive.

F**k it, all the great teams do it. We’ve been “it’s only Tottenham lads” for too long. We need a bit of steel and these boys bring it.

It’s noticeable in his book and in interviews that people say Poch is a cheat when he plays anything. Our players aren’t that way by chance.
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Exactly. I've noticed sometime posters on here getting a bit wound up by Redcafe and its posters when they're talking about us. If you think about it, they're the most successful club in the UK and have spent the past 20 years picking up whichever of our players they wanted and kicking us from pillar to post home and away. Even going 3-0 up wasn't enough. The club where 'Lads, its Tottenham' was enough of a team talk. Some of them are still stuck in that mode, that we are still the same.

We still aren't winning trophies. But it is clear as day that we are not the same. Look at the game just last week. Did we ever look at any point like we would lose that match against Man Utd? Did it look like we would collapse? Is there the same fear that we'll collapse like we always had in the past? For me, no. I don't have that anymore.

That cynicism, that mentality and attitude, is a huge part of the reason we are like that now. We are active participants in matches now, as opposed to passive bystanders as Man Utd smash in their 5th goal against us.
 
glasgowspur said:
The angle from the cam behind the lino shows clear, solid contact. It's a pen all day long.
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Which is why the lino gave it. But just because one angle shows contact, doesn't make it a "pen all day long," especially if another angle shows something different. Now, as I said earlier, there was very slight contact, but Lamela sold it well. Was it deserved? Probably. But it would be in the softish category, which still makes it pen, just not a clear-as-day one.
 
If an angle shows clear contact, then yes - its a penalty "all day long" regardless of other views. Its conclusive.

Personally I dont even think it was that slight a contact to be offering the whole "it is a pen, but it is soft..." argument.

Its a clear foul, anywhere on the pitch. It was in the box, it was a pen.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
If an angle shows clear contact, then yes - its a penalty "all day long" regardless of other views. Its conclusive.

Personally I dont even think it was that slight a contact to be offering the whole "it is a pen, but it is soft..." argument.

Its a clear foul, anywhere on the pitch. It was in the box, it was a pen.
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Um, no. If one angle shows contact, but another shows no contact, then it's not a pen all day long. In this case both angles showed contact, it's just that one showed more violent contact and the other softer contact (VvD nicked Lamela with the tip of his boot).

In any case, the passage of play that I would have been more angry about had the game gone a different way was the offside on Kane in the first half (I think), where Kane then laid it off to Eriksen for a one-on-one with Karius. Eriksen ended up missing, but I'm sure the offside call played a role in that. Kane was easily level with the last defender.
 
alekaras said:
Um, no. If one angle shows contact, but another shows no contact, then it's not a pen all day long. In this case both angles showed contact, it's just that one showed more violent contact and the other softer contact (VvD nicked Lamela with the tip of his boot).

In any case, the passage of play that I would have been more angry about had the game gone a different way was the offside on Kane in the first half (I think), where Kane then laid it off to Eriksen for a one-on-one with Karius. Eriksen ended up missing, but I'm sure the offside call played a role in that. Kane was easily level with the last defender.
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Mate, there's one view that is inconclusive because its from a difficult angle. Any other angle, including, most importantly, the linesman's view, shows VVD clearly booting Lamela's leg and actually quite hard as well.

If you were watching the play from directly behind them, you wouldn't be able to tell what was going on. That doesn't then mean its inconclusive if other views clearly show that he caught him quite heavily.

Did Lamela exaggerate it? I don't know tbh, its pretty damned painful being kicked in the calf like that, especially if it comes as a shock. But I personally would not have been upset if that were given against us cos Vertonghen or Dier had booted Firmino in the same way.
 
Hootnow said:
But I personally would not have been upset if that were given against us cos Vertonghen or Dier had booted Firmino in the same way.
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Thats usually my judgement on these things. If it was the other way around, would I complain?

Similarly, in rating players - who on that team could play for us? Quite often the answer isnt many...
 
Really hate it when people trot out the tired old line “if a player feels contact he’s entitled to go down”. fudge that, football is a contact sport ffs! How would we feel if Vertonghen nudged someone in the box to gain an advantage even if it was 50/50 and Salah threw himself to the ground and won a penalty? We’d be livid! The only reason to ever go to ground is when you have no choice I.e. when you’ve lost balance or the force of the contact forces you to go to ground. It’s a joke what is now construed as a foul in the box these days and is given as a penalty. And i include our players in this too, Kane is a master at dragging his leg to win pens.

It is what it is. I completely agree with Hootnow. We are one of the dirtiest, cynical sides in the league, sometimes we cross the line but personally I’d rather we acted in this manner than go back to being the soft, pushovers we were 10 years ago. At least teams know they’re in for a physical contest when they play us now.
 
alekaras said:
OK, I stand corrected. I watched it again frame by frame and there is a slight touch by VvD. Not as violent as Lamela made it out to be, but definitely a touch. But Lamela selling it is key to the pen being given. Another player may have not reacted to it the same way Lamela did and nothing would have been given.
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Slight touch? Van Dyke took a swing at the ball and instead of connecting with it, he connected with the top of Lamela's calf/back of his knee. That would've been a pretty painful kick IMO and an absolute nailed on penalty. The only controversy was that the ref bottled giving it (probably because he had already given the other one 5 mins before).
 
alekaras said:
Um, no. If one angle shows contact, but another shows no contact, then it's not a pen all day long. In this case both angles showed contact, it's just that one showed more violent contact and the other softer contact (VvD nicked Lamela with the tip of his boot).

In any case, the passage of play that I would have been more angry about had the game gone a different way was the offside on Kane in the first half (I think), where Kane then laid it off to Eriksen for a one-on-one with Karius. Eriksen ended up missing, but I'm sure the offside call played a role in that. Kane was easily level with the last defender.
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What on earth are you on about?.... What angle of Van Dyke's challenge on Lamela showed no contact?

I assume that do not disagree that Van Dyke was having a swing to try to kick the ball? I assume that you also cannot disagree that Lamela was positioned between Van Dyke and the ball? Knowing both of those two things then how can you think anything other than the fact that Van Dyke kicked Lamela?
 
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There is no way vvd has reaction times so good that he can pull out of that movement and have minimal contact, try it. The only way his foot isn't following through is catching something solid, in this case lamela leg.
Vvd reaction to lamela tells you it' a foul, it's a half hearted attempt to berate him.
As for lamela reaction, you don' have to study that vid too closely to see that he is caught be the toe of the boot, so all the force of that movement in one concenrated point.

I'm not totally convinced about Harry's, the keeper impedes his forward path so I think it's a soft one, but the 2nd one is a stick on.
 
Don't be naive lamela knew exactly what he was going to do and was smart enough to know what that donkey VVD would do.

VVD unfortunately did not have a clue about any thing
 
Finney Is Back said:
What on earth are you on about?.... What angle of Van Dyke's challenge on Lamela showed no contact?

I assume that do not disagree that Van Dyke was having a swing to try to kick the ball? I assume that you also cannot disagree that Lamela was positioned between Van Dyke and the ball? Knowing both of those two things then how can you think anything other than the fact that Van Dyke kicked Lamela?
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Geez, get a grip, guys. I didn't say there was no contact in this particular instance. I was just making a general argument that if one angle shows contact and the other does not, it's no contact and therefore not a foul/pen.

As for this particular one, as @glasgowspur mentioned, Lamela is caught by the toe of VvD's boot, not the whole damn foot. So it's a nick. A painful nick, no less, but still a nick. And Lamela did his best to make sure the ref knew that. I don't see what the hubbub with what I'm saying is all about, really.
 
Saw a video today that showed it was the full top of the foot punt/clearance that caught him flush on the hamstring!
 
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