*** OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool ***

[Kandi1977]

Mourinho out, Parker in

That would be one hell of a turnaround.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That would be one hell of a turnaround.

A long slow one

 

[MKSpur]

That would be one hell of a turnaround.

A compete turnaround. A full 360 degree turn or even a pirouette.

 

[thfcsteff]

You can just see the moment when Kane realises the ball is going over his head and looks over his shoulder to see Dier on all fours at the edge of the area, allowing Firminho a free run at Alderweireld

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I was a bit unfair to Toby too. That block leaves him dealing two on one. He has to make a snap decision which player to mark, the one behind him (the kid) or Firmino. In the end he hedges his bets and tries to cover both contingencies. Hindsight says that whatever the case, he'd have been better making sure the no 9 could not get anything and gambling that if the kid got a free header he'd muff it. But still not his fault. The ref missed the block and VAR doesn't call them. It won't happen in four weeks time...

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think falling over was making plenty of it.

I don't think that not seeing it is why the ref and VAR didn't give it. I think it's simply far easier for them to ignore it than to deny the champions elect a goal at home in the dying seconds.

There looked very little in it to me. I would’ve been fuming if we’d had a goal chalked off for that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Agreed.

According to whoscored we've conceded 5 set piece goals this season. 5th most in the PL, that seems a bit bad, but it's only one more than Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United for example. Arsenal somehow have 0 goals conceded from set pieces, suppose there are areas for them to decline in still.

With us having less of the ball and defending deeper I think we might be getting more set pieces against us than other top teams at least.

Could be argued that this means there's an even greater need to be good at defending against set pieces. Always areas to improve and improvement is good, but I think we're already pretty good and we've definitely improved.

Feels higher than that in my head?

Everton free kick,
Southampton penalty
Saudi Sportswashing Machine penalty (coming from a free kick)
Man Utd penalty
West Ham free kick
West Ham’s equalizer was second ball from a free kick)
Palace free kick
Liverpool corner

 

[Finney Is Back]

Probably true. Aurier was a big culprit for giving away frees but has improved. The amount given away against Palace seemed to be high, but I could be wrong (it happens every few years )

The problem is that the opposition are getting a lot of possession in areas high up the pitch. IMO we are conceding a pretty normal number of free kicks but they are in more dangerous areas because of our starting position. Though that balances out with the opposition having less clear cut chances due to our deep, defensive position and packing of the box, making it very difficult indeed to get in behind us.

In many ways it is percentage football that Jose is playing.... the opposition will probably have more attempts but all of a low’ish percentage, whereas we will have less chances but probably of a higher percentage. That does all rely on us defending set pieces and crosses well though. I do feel we miss a proper presence at the back here, as I feel our options are all merely adequate or worse in terms of their defensive heading ability.

 

[scaramanga]

There looked very little in it to me. I would’ve been fuming if we’d had a goal chalked off for that.

I'm not sure you've watched it all that carefully then.

It's a clear and planned pick play to ensure that Firminho is free in the box. It's not enough to take Dier down, but it's enough to stop him getting anywhere near the lesbian. All Dier can do at that point is go down as we all know that free kicks and penalties are never given unless a player highlights it to the ref by falling over.

We did our job well, possibly well enough to win. The ref and VAR failed to get even the basics of their jobs right.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I will say that in this game I completely disagree with Mourinho that the best team lost. The best team definitely won and, as much as it pains me to say it, I think Liverpool are by far the best team we have played this season. I will admit that we had the best chances to win the game. One would normally expect to score at least one of the three second half chances we had. However those chances were not really ‘created’.... a long ball that their defender badly misjudged for the first Bergwijn chance, a long kick from Lloris with two flick-ons for Bergwijn’s second and then Kane’s header from the resulting corner was all we had. In fact I think the only real decent move we put together in the match counter attack for Son’s goal.

I get why Jose is playing the way he is. We are weak in the centre of defence and therefore he is protecting that by playing deep and keeping the midfielders close to the two centre halves. Whether that is his absolute preferred tactic full stop, or just a temporary tactic until he gets the centre back pairing he wants, only time will tell, I would like to see us play higher up the pitch against opposition of lower quality than Liverpool though (although probably not in this weekend’s game against Leicester). I do feel though that we shouldn’t be too swayed by a single defensive lapse on a corner in the last minute in this game. Liverpool are best team in this league by quite a margin and on another day we come away from there with a win, a smash and grab win admittedly, but they all count.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm not sure you've watched it all that carefully then.

It's a clear and planned pick play to ensure that Firminho is free in the box. It's not enough to take Dier down, but it's enough to stop him getting anywhere near the lesbian. All Dier can do at that point is go down as we all know that free kicks and pelanties are never given unless a player highlights it to the ref by falling over.

We did our job well, possibly well enough to win. The ref and VAR failed to get even the basics of their jobs right.

I watched it hoping to find something to moan about, all I saw was Dier being far too weak.

 

[scaramanga]

I watched it hoping to find something to moan about, all I saw was Dier being far too weak.

There's no way he can just walk through Henderson. He could have moved him out of the way but that would have been a penalty and I guarantee it would have been given for those clams too.

There's only one solution to a well executed pick play and that's the referee doing his job. Not likely at Clanfield.

 

[Finney Is Back]

If you were to poll every member of GG i think it would be unanimous in praise for his defensive work. The problem is he’s giving us non-figuratively nothing at the other end. He kills attacks, he doesn’t score or create and he’s not causing the opposition problems. I’d be be slightly more forgiving of those missed chances if he was giving us something offensively but he’s not. He had two great chances are both of them he missed the target. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a forward to hit the target once with the two chances he had. Kane missed a great chance also I accept but him and have scored 90% of our goals and created the majority of the chances/assists.

Also, I thought I read somewhere Bergwijn was meant to be the quickest player in the Eredivisie? Maybe anecdotal but he lost a foot race on Sunday against palace and he had a head start. Nitpicking I know but I was shocked because I always assumed he was quick. I posted in the Bale thread that last night highlighted how badly we need him to come back fit and healthy as Bergwijn shouldn’t be a regular starter.

Bale doesn’t play in this Mourinho team because he doesn’t do what the manger wants from his wide forwards..... The only way Bale is playing for us in big games is as the out and out striker or one of a front 2 (i.e. instead of Kane or Son).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Benyeke won 12 (twelve) headers
But that resulted in 2 shots on target
Cahill won 3 and Eze 2 with no shots on target each
Kane won 3 headers, Hojdjberg 2 and the rest 1 apart from Aurier and Toby who won 0
Not sure what any of that means though

That Benteke is REALLY good in the air?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That Benteke is REALLY good in the air?

Well yeah
But also it lead to nothing

 

[Finney Is Back]

There's no way he can just walk through Henderson. He could have moved him out of the way but that would have been a pelanty and I guarantee it would have been given for those clams too.

There's only one solution to a well executed pick play and that's the referee doing his job. Not likely at Clanfield.

He gets a teeny bit of contact and goes to ground, it was incredibly weak defending and if we want to be successful under Mourinho and this system then we need better.

It also looks to me as though Dier falls over the wrong way... shouldn’t he be falling towards Firminho instead of away from him? It suggests to me that he is on the wrong foot and not in position to actually really tracking his run (which is why I think he throws himself to the floor).

 

[Jurgen the German]

Bale doesn’t play in this Mourinho team because he doesn’t do what the manger wants from his wide forwards..... The only way Bale is playing for us in big games is as the out and out striker or one of a front 2 (i.e. instead of Kane or Son).

No question Bale needs to show more than he has done so far and work harder but I just don’t think Bergwijn is giving us much (if anything) going forward. I accept he’s being asked to sacrifice a lot of his duties offensively but even when he does get the ball in the opponents half he doesn’t do much with it or hurt the opposition. This isn’t a knee jerk to those missed chances on Wednesday as those are the only chances I can recall that he has missed. I think Bergwijn, Moura and Lamela are all upgradable personally. They are fine as bench players none of them get enough goals or hurt the opposition as much as they should do.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The extra two subs will help as it means we can have a bench like midweek plus bale and vini
That’s a reactionary option we would struggle to fit in otherwise
IMO other teams don’t have that range of options to put on their bench

 

[Finney Is Back]

No question Bale needs to show more than he has done so far and work harder but I just don’t think Bergwijn is giving us much (if anything) going forward. I accept he’s being asked to sacrifice a lot of his duties offensively but even when he does get the ball in the opponents half he doesn’t do much with it or hurt the opposition. This isn’t a knee jerk to those missed chances on Wednesday as those are the only chances I can recall that he has missed. I think Bergwijn, Moura and Lamela are all upgradable personally. They are fine as bench players none of them get enough goals or hurt the opposition as much as they should do.

Who is this Lamela that you speak of?

Most players are upgradable. I think far easier and more pressing at the moment to upgrade at centre back. If wanting somebody in the squad to play instead of Bergwijn then I don’t think that person will be Bale, not under Mourinno anyway. What he is asking Bergwijn to do is very specific (and oriented towards defence and transition).

 

[scaramanga]

He gets a teeny bit of contact and goes to ground, it was incredibly weak defending and if we want to be successful under Mourinho and this system then we need better.

It also looks to me as though Dier falls over the wrong way... shouldn’t he be falling towards Firminho instead of away from him? It suggests to me that he is on the wrong foot and not in position to actually really tracking his run (which is why I think he throws himself to the floor).

Pick plays aren't about contact, they're about blocking markers.

The level of contact is irrelevant, because the only way Dier can continue to follow Firminho is to move Henderson out of the way. We all know that would have led to a penalty.

The only thing Dier can do at that point is ensure the ref can see the block. We have to assume referees will at least attempt to perform their roles - in this case he failed.

 

[braineclipse]

I will say that in this game I completely disagree with Mourinho that the best team lost. The best team definitely won and, as much as it pains me to say it, I think Liverpool are by far the best team we have played this season. I will admit that we had the best chances to win the game. One would normally expect to score at least one of the three second half chances we had. However those chances were not really ‘created’.... a long ball that their defender badly misjudged for the first Bergwijn chance, a long kick from Lloris with two flick-ons for Bergwijn’s second and then Kane’s header from the resulting corner was all we had. In fact I think the only real decent move we put together in the match counter attack for Son’s goal.

I get why Jose is playing the way he is. We are weak in the centre of defence and therefore he is protecting that by playing deep and keeping the midfielders close to the two centre halves. Whether that is his absolute preferred tactic full stop, or just a temporary tactic until he gets the centre back pairing he wants, only time will tell, I would like to see us play higher up the pitch against opposition of lower quality than Liverpool though (although probably not in this weekend’s game against Leicester). I do feel though that we shouldn’t be too swayed by a single defensive lapse on a corner in the last minute in this game. Liverpool are best team in this league by quite a margin and on another day we come away from there with a win, a smash and grab win admittedly, but they all count.

Depends what you mean by best team i suppose.

Not like their chances were carved out clear cut chances either. A corner (we had one of those) and a heavy deflation from a block.

They played "better" in the first half especially in terms of having the ball, looking dangerous throughout. But we played better in terms of quality chances we got to. Yes some of them were "lucky" or down to poor defending, but that's often the case with chances.

I agree that I hope we develop more ways to play, particularly in games not against the bigger teams. Some positive signs from the first half against Palace, the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game etc, but doing that more consistently would improve us no doubt.