OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs Internazionale

[AdamB]

I completely think Levy wants us competing with the Manchesters. It won't happen overnight and takes a lot of smart thought and long term planning, but I think he wants us there.

This idea that Levy just wants 4th is nonsense and has no basis.

My point is more that I'm sure you could put together a rational case of figures which shows that what it costs to finish 1st and 2nd consistently, compared to what it costs to typically be 4th-ish, is huge and unlikely to be sensibly justified given the risk.

Clearly if Spurs ever got to the point where we had the brand and global fan base like Man U, Real, Barca, Bayern etc then it becomes sustainable and self-fulfilling. However that takes years and years, a lot of luck, a lot of cash and is far far harder nowadays considering how entrenched the top clubs are. Look at the cash which PSG are spending to try to short-cut their way there. We're trying to build organically and sensibly over an extended period however the additional annual spend to regularly finish get into that very top echelon is huge - I'm highly sceptical whether we'd ever take the step where we'd be happy to even spend the amounts consistently in transfer window and increase our wage bill to the level necessary to get to that level.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I’m actually quite comforted by this. And was more worried when Poch was hanging out the team to dry in public a little. Because that was different from his usual MO and suggests he saw something wasn’t quite right.

All this is, is Poch having the clear conviction in his decisions and defending the players on the pitch tonight. This is the best Poch, and what has made him successful. And leads me to believe we will be ok.

Christ, you have been on the positive juice tonight

 

[the dza]

Yep. Have to worry a little bit about how things are behind closed doors when he’s ranting like that to hacks.

I think he's feeling pressure. Not from Levy, but from his own expectations of the team. They are letting him down at the minute.

After Utd, he said the performance wasn't great and 0-3 flattered us -- he was right. Said we needed to play better or we'd crash (v Watford). Right again.

Said after Watford that we played like it was a testimonial. Can't argue with that, particularly the first half.

By now, both he and us would expect a response from the team -- they served up a load of sh1t v Liverpool. And tonight, we've managed to turn 3 points into 0.

This is the biggest test for Poch since he took over. We can get the season back on track over the next 8 weeks or watch it disintegrate. Not looking forward to Brighton away with how poor we have been defending crosses, they will get the ball in the box constantly and Murray could cause us all sorts of problems. It feels like the team don't believe in themselves right now.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

My point is more that I'm sure you could put together a rational case of figures which shows that what it costs to finish 1st and 2nd consistently, compared to what it costs to typically be 4th-ish, is huge and unlikely to be sensibly justified given the risk.

Clearly if Spurs ever got to the point where we had the brand and global fan base like Man U, Real, Barca, Bayern etc then it becomes sustainable and self-fulfilling. However that takes years and years, a lot of luck, a lot of cash and is far far harder nowadays considering how entrenched the top clubs are. Look at the cash which PSG are spending to try to short-cut their way there. We're trying to build organically and sensibly over an extended period however the additional annual spend to regularly finish get into that very top echelon is huge - I'm highly sceptical whether we'd ever take the step where we'd be happy to even spend the amounts consistently in transfer window and increase our wage bill to the level necessary to get to that level.

Errrm, I agree with near enough all of that. I just think Levy ultimately wants us to be a genuine top club, its just it takes a long time to get there and be there consistently. Any club can go for it for a season or two. And if you have an owner like Chelsea you can cycle through good periods and extra bad ones safe in the knowledge your owner will just loan the club the money needed to get back to the top again. We can't do that. So we have the ambition, we just need to be careful.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was super impressed by them at the weekend but John Giles was on today saying “yeah they looked real good but look at the goal they gave Spurs. Lamela had way too much time. Liverpool will still give goals away and they aren’t properly organized on set pieces.”

He may have had a point.

They have no leader on the pitch
Every time they conceded this season they have given away more chances
Reminds me of us that way

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Christ, you have been on the positive juice tonight

I think what people are missing is that he's used this precise 'don't disrespect the players on the pitch tonight' line a few times before. He's always about the collective and not about individuals. This is classic, pure Poch. And it makes me happy.

I think he is feeling the pressure. I do wonder whether calling the players out after the United win was a mistake, because more than a few people did think it was a little harsh to do that publicly. But he obviously saw something wasn't quite right, and maybe / hopefully it will serve a purpose in terms of establishing standards for later in the season and that we hit those heights.

I think the players had let him down in the Watford and Liverpool games, but tonight we probably win that game 4 times out of 10 and get a draw in another 3 or 4. We were unlucky, but the performance, especially our passing, was much better. Previously it's like the players have been told 'release Lucas quickly' to mean lump it into the channel every chance we get. And it's been terrible. Tonight we actually passed the ball and used it at the right times. It was broadly a good performance. We'll be ok if we keep this up, and I'm glad Poch has gone to bat for the players on the pitch tonight. They know if they slack off, he'll be on them win or lose. If they do their best, he is there for them, again win or lose.

 

[Bullet]

They have no leader on the pitch
Every time they conceded this season they have given away more chances
Reminds me of us that way

Milner, Henderson and Van Dijk are all vocal leaders.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Milner, Henderson and Van Dijk are all vocal leaders.

I think maybe they give that impression but we have guys who appear to talk a lot

A leader does it on the pitch and I’m yet to see that with us or pool

Every time I’ve seen them concede this season they have looked like a rudderless ship afterwards

Maybe it’s a case of having players who haven’t won anything of note to inspire the teams and be offer that leadership (I know Mikner won the league at City)

 

[Rorschach]

I didn't see the last 20min or so (I won't be watching them) but to be honest from what I did see Inter weren't even that good.

The first half was bad, very bad. We were very, very, very bad for the first 30mins and all because Inter pressed us high up the pitch. That's all it takes for any team to completely negate our clever 'play it out from the back' tactic. I'm not sure why we persist with this when the opposition has obviously figured out we are not going to try anything different. We really need some variation here as it often just puts us in trouble. And then for some reason, Inter stopped pressing with their 3 high up the pitch. I don't understand why that happened frankly, but it gave us the breathing space we needed to get a foothold in the game.

If I was pointing the finger of blame for our recent poor form it would mostly be at the players as they are just not playing to their potential. Some of the brick they are serving up is just not good enough. Basic failures in control and passing are pretty unforgivable.

And Poch needs to drop Kane. Ferguson wouldn't hesitate to do it in the same position.

It could be worse though. You could be Trump's knob.
Lighten up you moopey fudges.

 

[Pirate55]

Remember the debate about how winning trophies aren’t important? I do wonder if after three seasons or so of intense training and not actually winning anything from this causes players to whether deliberately or not ease off their efforts as they’re not seeing any real rewards? It must be mentally draining to keep on putting in such effort then just falling short. Another reason why freshening up is necessary. Just a thought....

Exactly what I argued earlier. For the second goal, our desire to win that ball just isn’t there. Yes I’m looking at you Dier. He just isn’t up to it at the moment. Must be dropped now.

 

[Aldo]

We’ll school these clams at home.
Pot 3 tossers.

 

[Pirate55]

A tale of two strikers. One gets one chance and fluffs his lines, the other gets one chance and scores a worldie. Fine margins. We should have won, but heyho. Brighton now really is a must win.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1042106689560952833

 

[Hootnow]

Exactly and I hope Levy didn’t break any promises to Poch in getting him to sign a contract. If he did, Poch will walk at some stage this season. However, if Poch went in with his eyes open, then hopefully he rides this out.

He’s been dealt a bad hand this season but I firmly and absolutely believe he is the man for us. And I don’t give a brick if he loses 10 on the spin, I still want him at our club.

This is my biggest worry.

Poch has his faults, he is not perfect but he is the best manager we've had in decades. Good managers are not easy to come by. Levy has had his fair share of flops. I was going to list some of them but the thought of some of them has made me vomit a bit in my mouth. I really really hope that Levy did not promise Poch something that he has not been able to deliver on.

Poch has certainly not seemed himself so far this season, seems a lot more tetchy. I would be as well if I was in his position tbh, I think he's been asked to do a very difficult job this season and he will be the fall guy if things go wrong, especially as there's a significant portion of our fan base who think Levy can do absolutely no wrong (and for balance, a section who look to attack him on anything).

Poch's safe should be safe regardless of almost anything imo, barring almost imminent relegation or something like that.

Sad about the result tonight.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Jenas and Hoddle frustrated as the rest of us after the match...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

This is my biggest worry.

Poch has his faults, he is not perfect but he is the best manager we've had in decades. Good managers are not easy to come by. Levy has had his fair share of flops. I was going to list some of them but the thought of some of them has made me vomit a bit in my mouth. I really really hope that Levy did not promise Poch something that he has not been able to deliver on.

Poch has certainly not seemed himself so far this season, seems a lot more tetchy. I would be as well if I was in his position tbh, I think he's been asked to do a very difficult job this season and he will be the fall guy if things go wrong, especially as there's a significant portion of our fan base who think Levy can do absolutely no wrong (and for balance, a section who look to attack him on anything).

Poch's safe should be safe regardless of almost anything imo, barring almost imminent relegation or something like that.

Sad about the result tonight.

I think Poch will be safe, because Levy knows exactly the difficulties Poch has been dealt. And I think Poch knows the difficulties that Levy, and the club have faced. I'm sure both sides are frustrated, but at the end of the day they've both been dealt some bricky hands this season and are trying to make the most of it.

I really doubt Levy went 'we are going to give you £150M if you stay with us' because that just isn't how it works. It isn't Levy's MO. And we hadn't finished the stadium yet. I'm sure Poch wanted to push on once we moved in but it's been pushed back. In the heat of the moment, there will be frustrations, but I don't think Levy will have broken promises. And the weird thing is, everyone is assuming Levy has sold Poch short by not making signings, when it may have been just as much Poch's decisions to keep certain players if we couldn't shift them, or to not sign players if the deal wasn't right for us. He's tetchier but he's also physically fitter, he seemed to want to prove the world something this year and hopefully that determination is still there.

 

[alekaras]

Also, re: the talk about Poch...

..modern football doesn't work that way, but I'd sell 24 out of 25 of these self-important bottlers before I'd even think about getting rid of Poch.

Go back to basics, get a new Mason and Bentaleb, start over with heart and bravery, I don't mind. But Poch will be key - and the mental fragilities of this squad and this club are not down to him.

Aren't they? Why do managers like Simeone and SAF get their players to perform and with us it's up to the mental fragility of the players?

Don't get me wrong, I love Poch and hope he stays with us for many years, but somehow I don't think motivation is his strong point. He's great at building a team, but it seems to me he then relies on the "collective" to self motivate. And I'm just guessing here, obviously, but the lapses we have and our slow starts in some important games seem to point to something like this.

In any case, it's a long season, so let's see what happens.

 

[Hootnow]

I think Poch will be safe, because Levy knows exactly the difficulties Poch has been dealt. And I think Poch knows the difficulties that Levy, and the club have faced. I'm sure both sides are frustrated, but at the end of the day they've both been dealt some bricky hands this season and are trying to make the most of it.

I really doubt Levy went 'we are going to give you £150M if you stay with us' because that just isn't how it works. It isn't Levy's MO. And we hadn't finished the stadium yet. I'm sure Poch wanted to push on once we moved in but it's been pushed back. In the heat of the moment, there will be frustrations, but I don't think Levy will have broken promises. And the weird thing is, everyone is assuming Levy has sold Poch short by not making signings, when it may have been just as much Poch's decisions to keep certain players if we couldn't shift them, or to not sign players if the deal wasn't right for us. He's tetchier but he's also physically fitter, he seemed to want to prove the world something this year and hopefully that determination is still there.

Well I hope so. Levy has been ruthless before.

I never thought we had 150 million to spend, that was always a ridiculous figure to me. However, I also thought it was ridiculous that we would sign nobody at all but I guess that ended up happening.

Talking about Levy's MO, I don't think It is Poch's at all to keep around players who he doesn't want around anymore. I really doubt he will have just said ok keep the players if we're struggling to raise the exact asking prices for players.

We're lucky that Poch is a gent because he has so far toed the party line and not been airing dirty business in public like some other managers do. However, I think it would take the most optimistic of fans to still claim that when he came out about 'being brave' he meant make no signings.

Sometimes there does have to be an element of speculation.

As I said in another post, I worry that some fans think the only possible route with the new stadium is up. That isn't the case. I am so excited about when we finally play there but it isn't true that a new stadium guarantees upwards progress. Arsenal built theirs (in a better financial environment) and went from league winners to perrenial top 4 finishers only to not winning anything for a long time to finally ending up in the EL twice in a row (and looking a good bet to make it 3). We don't even have the same starting point as them either. If we end up losing some of our best players, maybe even Poch, that isn't a good outcome and not good for us either in the short or medium term.

I also hope that determination is still there, that we move in sooner rather than later, that we finish in the top 4, progress from our group and hopefully win something. I'm not discounting that stuff happening at all and people now do seem to be quite knee jerk. No point in that but things do seem slightly concerning currently.

 

[90291Spur]

Jenas and Hoddle frustrated as the rest of us after the match...

Thanks for this. Jenas is confident Poch will turn it around. And at around 6.00 hodd bemoans the lack of leaders in the modern game.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Well I hope so. Levy has been ruthless before.

I never thought we had 150 million to spend, that was always a ridiculous figure to me. However, I also thought it was ridiculous that we would sign nobody at all but I guess that ended up happening.

Talking about Levy's MO, I don't think It is Poch's at all to keep around players who he doesn't want around anymore. I really doubt he will have just said ok keep the players if we're struggling to raise the exact asking prices for players.

We're lucky that Poch is a gent because he has so far toed the party line and not been airing dirty business in public like some other managers do. However, I think it would take the most optimistic of fans to still claim that when he came out about 'being brave' he meant make no signings.

Sometimes there does have to be an element of speculation.

As I said in another post, I worry that some fans think the only possible route with the new stadium is up. That isn't the case. I am so excited about when we finally play there but it isn't true that a new stadium guarantees upwards progress. Arsenal built theirs (in a better financial environment) and went from league winners to perrenial top 4 finishers only to not winning anything for a long time to finally ending up in the EL twice in a row (and looking a good bet to make it 3). We don't even have the same starting point as them either. If we end up losing some of our best players, maybe even Poch, that isn't a good outcome and not good for us either in the short or medium term.

I also hope that determination is still there, that we move in sooner rather than later, that we finish in the top 4, progress from our group and hopefully win something. I'm not discounting that stuff happening at all and people now do seem to be quite knee jerk. No point in that but things do seem slightly concerning currently.

I agree that Poch wanted signings. He said as much the year before too, that signings keep the squad on their toes and add new impetus.

But as peerless as Poch is, it doesn’t mean he gets it all the way he wants, and I also think he is clever enough to understand the wider factors affecting this summer. So I think he wanted signings, but I think he also wanted players out. If he’s annoyed with anyone, I think it’s players wage pricing themselves out of moves, not Levy. But I think he’s decided if he’s got this squad, it does have talent and experience and he’s gonna make the most of it.