*** OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs Crystal Palace ***

[Nigeyman]

I don't know if I buy that we changed things. We changed personnel but the system and shape was pretty much the same just staffed with players with slightly different attributes. I don't think they directly made much of a difference versus th difference I saw him Hojberg pushing much further forward after their goal. Likewise we saw Dier sit on the halfway line and try and keep Palace pended that I think had more of an effect than Dele or Davies who both barely touched the ball in their short time on the pitch.

@Finney Is Back I wonder if Jose was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He may not have intended to sit in the low block but as the game developed and we had the lead he might not have wanted to changed the composition of the midfield (which I think we thought was the obvious route to go down) with the concern that we might have gotten weaker there. In the end he was reactive rather than proactive. He obviously thought we would be able ton hold out but it didn't quite work this time.

It's not a terrible way of thinking, but not a plan that I would encourage. Any time we just have a single goal lead it just takes that one mistake to even things out. I hope the next time we are in this situation we have a better approach and outcome.

We were definitely torn between killing the game and protecting what we had.

West Ham collapse will give our boys the jitters for a while to come.
Including Jose.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think the change after their goal is just tactics. I suspect there's a mental component too, our players perhaps trusting our ability to see out a game a bit too much, getting complacent on terms of attacking. Then being woken up when they equalised.

Most importantly though the change also came because Palace changed their approach after they equalised.

Did they change or did we change? Impossible to tell I guess.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't know if I buy that we changed things. We changed personnel but the system and shape was pretty much the same just staffed with players with slightly different attributes. I don't think they directly made much of a difference versus th difference I saw him Hojberg pushing much further forward after their goal. Likewise we saw Dier sit on the halfway line and try and keep Palace pended that I think had more of an effect than Dele or Davies who both barely touched the ball in their short time on the pitch.

@Finney Is Back I wonder if Jose was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He may not have intended to sit in the low block but as the game developed and we had the lead he might not have wanted to changed the composition of the midfield (which I think we thought was the obvious route to go down) with the concern that we might have gotten weaker there. In the end he was reactive rather than proactive. He obviously thought we would be able ton hold out but it didn't quite work this time.

It's not a terrible way of thinking, but not a plan that I would encourage. Any time we just have a single goal lead it just takes that one mistake to even things out. I hope the next time we are in this situation we have a better approach and outcome.

From about 70 minutes I thought it looked a case of when equaliser came instead of if, we got visibly deeper and deeper and Palace’s reasonable possession on the ball was getting higher and higher up the pitch. I would’ve liked Jose to actually properly change things at this time, give Palace something to think about with another player in the hole (Dele), that Palace would either have to pick up and free up Kane and Son a bit or leave in space, which would’ve given us a platform to launch attacks from. I can see why Jose kept it as he did. We were 1-0 up, had held out against City, Arsenal and Chelsea and Lloris wasn’t really very busy. I guess it’s that stick or twist thing and sticking had paid dividends previously.

 

[Junior19]

I saw a huge difference between how we allowed Arsenal to play on our half, and how Palace _forced_ play on our half. And I think we can be fairly certain that it was not Jose's intention that our clearances were hoofed over the sidelines, wild, bouncing pinball-clearances going here, there and everywhere, not remotely like they were against Arsenal. Yes, they were long, hard kicks at times then too, but you could usually see that there was some intention behind it beyond just rescue. Not so much yesterday.

I was hoping for Jose to be brave and put Dele for Stevie on at 60-65, together with Gio for Tanguy. Bergwijn's work rate was good, but I think what we needed a bit more of at that time was Lamela's brickhousery, and since he is unavailable, I'd send Dele on with a message to kick some shins, pull some chesthairs, and force them to take notice. Because at that point, they were really bullying us quite a bit.

After the equalizer, and the changes, we managed to bite back, and if not for that impossible goalie we would have won it.

In the end this was not a disaster, since Fulham did their bit, and I hope we've shaken off that West Ham-ghost as Nigeyman referred to.
I'm not going to lie, I was disappointed, but calm about it. Sort of....

 

[iggyfog]

I agree.

I know not everyone likes stats, but for those that do - I found this an interesting illustration of what I (and I'm sure most people) have been seeing with my own eyes - that as well as being decent defensively, Hojbjerg offers so much more in possession than Sissoko:

View attachment 10261

Sissoko's great in games where we're defending and hitting on the break, but not when we're trying to keep possession to defend a lead like Jose said we were yesterday.

(Not saying Sissoko was entirely at fault yesterday, but I think he was part of the problem).

You watch other midfielders that perform a similar roll (I would say someone like Kante/Phillips for example) - excellent at mopping up possession and also excellent at distribution/recycling the ball

We don't need Sissoko vs the "lesser" teams in the Prem - (i use lesser teams in quotes here as there are lots of decent teams in the premier league)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't know if I buy that we changed things. We changed personnel but the system and shape was pretty much the same just staffed with players with slightly different attributes. I don't think they directly made much of a difference versus th difference I saw him Hojberg pushing much further forward after their goal. Likewise we saw Dier sit on the halfway line and try and keep Palace pended that I think had more of an effect than Dele or Davies who both barely touched the ball in their short time on the pitch.

@Finney Is Back I wonder if Jose was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He may not have intended to sit in the low block but as the game developed and we had the lead he might not have wanted to changed the composition of the midfield (which I think we thought was the obvious route to go down) with the concern that we might have gotten weaker there. In the end he was reactive rather than proactive. He obviously thought we would be able ton hold out but it didn't quite work this time.

It's not a terrible way of thinking, but not a plan that I would encourage. Any time we just have a single goal lead it just takes that one mistake to even things out. I hope the next time we are in this situation we have a better approach and outcome.

I didn’t ah we did change things, just changed the personnel

 

[Bishop]

You watch other midfielders that perform a similar roll (I would say someone like Kante/Phillips for example) - excellent at mopping up possession and also excellent at distribution/recycling the ball

We don't need Sissoko vs the "lesser" teams in the Prem - (i use lesser teams in quotes here as there are lots of decent teams in the premier league)

To get a tune out of Sissoko we literally have to play him next to a defensively superior player in Hojberg who can play a bit. Hojberg does all the progressive work, he's the one who moves the ball about, he's the one who is press resistant, he is the one whose passes can break lines. Sissoko just a body and that's it. Give him any responsibility on the ball and he will pass it back to a CB and then go hide behind an opposition presser.

Some fans speak on his defensive work as if it's something remarkable it's literally all he can do. Just be a body in the way. It's not as if his defensive awareness is even good that's why he's always bloody tacking from behind or the side he has 0 anticipation.

Yesterday's game was not one for him..sure play him in the tough games if we must for notion of defensive security but in a game in which we fairly easily dominate (as we did pre our goal) he is actually a waste of a starting position. Bring him on if you feel you want to shore things up but playing for the full 90 was a mistake imo.

 

[elltrev]

It will be interesting to see if/how Jose reacts to the Palace game, tactically speaking. Will he think that we need to get better in possession in order to see out some games, and so adjust personnel and/or training focus accordingly? Or will he interpret this game as the players showing him that they're not good enough to use possession to see out some games, and so double-down on the defensive / counter-attacking approach instead?

(Or option 3: am I overreacting to one game, and he won't be thinking along these lines at all?! )

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It will be interesting to see if/how Jose reacts to the Palace game, tactically speaking. Will he think that we need to get better in possession in order to see out some games, and so adjust personnel and/or training focus accordingly? Or will he interpret this game as the players showing him that they're not good enough to use possession to see out some games, and so double-down on the defensive / counter-attacking approach instead?

(Or option 3: am I overreacting to one game, and he won't be thinking along these lines at all?! )

He will IMO treat it as an isolated game, but a learning curve too
I’ll say what I’ve said before, palace will a fully fit first 11 are a rough game for anyone. Their more balanced now than they have ever been in the premier league
He will know that, but he will also know what we can do better
Using the ball and controlling the tempo is key.
He will also know that the players will have had one mind on this Wednesdays game and that’s natural too

 

[Raziel]

To get a tune out of Sissoko we non-figuratively have to play him next to a defensively superior player in Hojberg who can play a bit. Hojberg does all the progressive work, he's the one who moves the ball about, he's the one who is press resistant, he is the one whose passes can break lines. Sissoko just a body and that's it. Give him any responsibility on the ball and he will pass it back to a CB and then go hide behind an opposition presser.

I think that I am a better football fan than the rest of you speak on his defensive work as if it's something remarkable it's non-figuratively all he can do. Just be a body in the way. It's not as if his defensive awareness is even good that's why he's always bloody tacking from behind or the side he has 0 anticipation.

Yesterday's game was not one for him..sure play him in the tough games if we must for notion of defensive security but in a game in which we fairly easily dominate (as we did pre our goal) he is actually a waste of a starting position. Bring him on if you feel you want to shore things up but playing for the full 90 was a mistake imo.

Some of your comments are fair (Sissoko absolutely has a ceiling), the question is - Who do you play instead?

- Clearly we are managing Gio/Ndombele so that one of them is always available, and in addition, we haven't seen them work as a pair
- So you really have Winks (failed repeatedly), Dele (hasn't really played deep well since his first season) or one of the youngsters?

Sissoko does a job, my opinion is he is the next 1st team player to be upgraded (was too low in priority list over summer, and we probably had hopes for Winks)

 

[parklane1]

Just watched the game again and i have come to the conclusion that some of the criticism of our play is not really deserved. Their goalkeeper got them the point and on another day we would have had a clear win, not saying it was our best performance of the season but i think we were the better team and in control for most of the game.

Lloris has been great this season but he should have come for the ball and not stood frozen on his line, he was unlucky the way it hit him but if he had come for it and punched the ball it would not have happened.

 

[Bishop]

Some of your comments are fair (Sissoko absolutely has a ceiling), the question is - Who do you play instead?

- Clearly we are managing Gio/Ndombele so that one of them is always available, and in addition, we haven't seen them work as a pair
- So you really have Winks (failed repeatedly), Dele (hasn't really played deep well since his first season) or one of the youngsters?

Sissoko does a job, my opinion is he is the next 1st team player to be upgraded (was too low in priority list over summer, and we probably had hopes for Winks)

I rate him lower than Winks tbh so...[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I want to see one of Ndombele/GLC in the secondary CM role. They are both versatile players but they are primarily CMs Ndombele especially. I think we will see more of his quality if he is behind play rather than in front of it as he has been in our recent system.

Neither might on paper be as good as Sissoko defensively but I don't really buy it. They both have better tackle and interception stats. GLC of course has fanatic workrate and they are bother far more willing to receive the ball in tough situations than Sissoko is.

I do feel that a lot of the time the defensive pressure we come under is in part due to our inability to keep the ball well especially when Sissoko is tasked with being a key man in midfield. He's just not capable of that kind of game.

For the tough matches this system undoubtedly works and I won't and haven't complained about his selection, I am ultimately a pragmatist but there are certain games he's just not suited too.

If Jose doesn't feel comfortable with any other alternative option ls then hopefully we bring someone in to take over that role or Skipp's proves himself worthy. Sissoko is the weakest link and the way to improve is to address your weakest point, that is now him.

 

[Bishop]

Just watched the game again and i have come to the conclusion that some of the criticism of our play is not really deserved. Their goalkeeper got them the point and on another day we would have had a clear win, not saying it was our best performance of the season but i think we were the better team and in control for most of the game.

Lloris has been great this season but he should have come for the ball and not stood frozen on his line, he was unlucky the way it hit him but if he had come for it and punched the ball it would not have happened.

I need to watch the goal again but I remember thinking the ball in was quite low, would Lloris realistically have been able to punch it out?

I did when watching it live think he should have done something different though.

 

[parklane1]

I need to watch the goal again but I remember thinking the ball in was quite low, would Lloris realistically have been able to punch it out?

I did when watching it live think he should have done something different though.

He would have had to reach over players but keepers are used to doing that just staying on his line was a poor decision, mind you i am no keeper so i may be wrong.

 

[Raziel]

I rate him lower than Winks tbh so...[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I want to see one of Ndombele/GLC in the secondary CM role. They are both versatile players but they are primarily CMs Ndombele especially. I think we will see more of his quality if he is behind play rather than in front of it as he has been in our recent system.

Neither might on paper be as good as Sissoko defensively but I don't really buy it. They both have better tackle and interception stats. GLC of course has fanatic workrate and they are bother far more willing to receive the ball in tough situations than Sissoko is.

I do feel that a lot of the time the defensive pressure we come under is in part due to our inability to keep the ball well especially when Sissoko is tasked with being a key man in midfield. He's just not capable of that kind of game.

For the tough matches this system undoubtedly works and I won't and haven't complained about his selection, I am ultimately a pragmatist but there are certain games he's just not suited too.

If Jose doesn't feel comfortable with any other alternative option ls then hopefully we bring someone in to take over that role or Skipp's proves himself worthy. Sissoko is the weakest link and the way to improve is to address your weakest point, that is now him.

The problem is we have so many games, playing Gio and Ndombele (neither of whom have great injury records) together is not really an option.

Skipp will have probably 50+ matches by next season, so either he comes in, or we give another season of development.

My summer list would likely be Sanchez, Winks, Dele out -> CM (one that could cover for and play with PEH) +Top level CB in. Sissoko might go just because of contract running down and at his age he might not want to accept 1 year extentions (the Jan problem)

 

[parklane1]

Just watched the game again and i have come to the conclusion that some of the criticism of our play is not really deserved. Their goalkeeper got them the point and on another day we would have had a clear win, not saying it was our best performance of the season but i think we were the better team and in control for most of the game.

Lloris has been great this season but he should have come for the ball and not stood frozen on his line, he was unlucky the way it hit him but if he had come for it and punched the ball it would not have happened.

Forgot to say that Zaha is the second most overated player in the Prem imo, and a whinny bitch as well.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Just watched the game again and i have come to the conclusion that some of the criticism of our play is not really deserved. Their goalkeeper got them the point and on another day we would have had a clear win, not saying it was our best performance of the season but i think we were the better team and in control for most of the game.

Lloris has been great this season but he should have come for the ball and not stood frozen on his line, he was unlucky the way it hit him but if he had come for it and punched the ball it would not have happened.

I don’t think we played that badly. We were fine up until around 30 mins when they started to grow in confidence but I wouldn’t say we necessarily controlled the game or deserved to win. Their keeper made some unbelievable saves but Palace had their chances too and were good value for a point I felt. Just wish we had gone for the 2nd goal before they scored. Shame we waited until they equalised before we really went for it again.

I think Lloris should have done better for the goal but it wasn’t a howler as such.

 

[Raziel]

Forgot to say that Zaha is the second most overated player in the Prem imo, and a whinny bitch as well.

It is quickly becoming my most frustrating match to watch per season.

- Zaha flops all over the pitch constantly and whines all the time, I've always said he's overrated, the numbers show it
- They in general play a fairly physical game, yet dive all the time
- Their fudging fans are just reflection of Zaha, constantly moaning and whining about standard ref calls.

 

[parklane1]

It is quickly becoming my most frustrating match to watch per season.

- Zaha flops all over the pitch constantly and whines all the time, I've always said he's overrated, the numbers show it
- They in general play a fairly physical game, yet dive all the time
- Their fudging fans are just reflection of Zaha, constantly moaning and whining about standard ref calls.

Can not d isagree at all, as for the fans they are a bunch of m orons and remind me of the Stoke fans when they were under Pullis.

 

[parklane1]

I don’t think we played that badly. We were fine up until around 30 mins when they started to grow in confidence but I wouldn’t say we necessarily controlled the game or deserved to win. Their keeper made some unbelievable saves but Palace had their chances too and were good value for a point I felt. Just wish we had gone for the 2nd goal before they scored. Shame we waited until they equalised before we really went for it again.

I think Lloris should have done better for the goal but it wasn’t a howler as such.

Well as we say it s all about o pinions but that is the way i saw it. As i said earlier it was a top game by their keeper who had far more saves to make and some were top drawer.