glasgowspur
Paul Stewart
One in a functional first team would be OK, four in the mess we're in just now is a recipe for disaster.
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*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v West Ham FC ***
- Thread starter metalgear
- Start date
SteveAWOL
Tommy Harmer
Spot on from Dawson… remember the last Wet Spam match I attended how thousands of Spurs fans were singing on the stairs behind the Goal Line bar for about half an hour after the final white whilst today I didn’t even have to queue up to get served because most of the crowd were already on their way home.
Baleforce
Chris Waddle
You didn’t say academy players initially, you said youngsters.
I’ve made no comment on their ability, only their age.
You should join the coaching staff, if we could get the team moving the goal posts half as quick as you the opposition would never hit the target ;-)
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Well the Odobert chance at the beginning was a passage of passing play and got in on goal. After that they scored and sat deep, which you’d expect from a Nuno team. But I’m not sure what your point is. Yes we were zhit?
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
You think Frank tells Odobert to play that pass and then stop still. How does that even work? What is the instruction you’re hearing?
The point is that the players we have paid good money for and the amount of games they have played even though they are "young" are not good enough in my opinion. As for joining the coaching staff, I dont think there is any coach in the world to make Odebert, Tel and Simons into top class premiership players. Its just my opinion but if you think any of them are going to turn into top class players that the worlds top clubs will want to offer big money for then you are far more optimistic than me. And I have seen plenty of poor squads in all the years I have supported our team, but Tel Odebert Simons and Muani are average in my opinion, if you think different fair play.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
So.
Before you try and say I am coming at you because I am an 'Ange supporter' or some such other stuff, I just want to be very clear I am presenting a quote from Thomas Frank which he gave after being appointed in June. In fairness, we should note he had just got the job and might well have been totally trumping/lying to the public (which would then become another discussion). However, if taken at face value, I suspect Thomas disagreed when he joined...which then has me wondering whether he did enough due diligence, whether someone lied to HIM, or whether he is simply finding our merciless club and all it's circus elements too much?
“Huge congratulations to Ange,” Frank said at his unveiling.
“He will forever be a legend at Tottenham. It’s very important to understand that we all stand on the shoulders of others so I am going in on the foundations that Ange has built. I’m very humble about that and I’ll do my very best to continue the great work he put in."
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
Exactly.
Far easier to keep hammering on about the guy last season who also had a ton of injuries yet still won us a European trophy. Don't look there, look there! And also far easier to say this is all because the players are so mediocre/poor that we should expect anyone to be able to get anything out of them.
THAT'S laughable to me. Genuinely.
There are many many factors involved in our current plight, and yes, historical mistakes, a lack of world class player acquisitions plus injuries have all conspired to be factors. But this club, and all it's weird ways, is too much for this manager. That's very clear.
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Ermm where to start with this. Your point is there were foundations, because Frank said so? You’re using the guy you don’t like as a manager to give evidence. Very confused.
As to the foundations Frank inherited, see my original post. He inherited attacking football, but none of those attackers bar Johnson who we upgraded.
The point about building on foundations is my original point. Few human endeavours are made in isolation. We build on what has come before. Liverpool when Slot took over were already a top team. The structures in the club were stable and new players could ease into a side that had familiarity.
On taking a new job where the last manager has just lifted the first trophy in decades, of course Frank isn’t going to say: “kin el mate you left a zhit show here for me to clean up!!”
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thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
I love you @Mikey10 so please know it isn't personal, but I do find myself disagreeing with you on lots at the moment (thankfully our mutal love of Spurs, dogs and decency prevails!)...
Anyway...to respond to the above. One took the job either thinking he could change Levy or genuinely knowing he couldn't and wringing us for what he could get (I believe he really thought he could change Levy, I also think the deaths in his inner friendship circle crushed him). The other came into the club on the premise he could 'win things' with the squad Poch had in 2019, and subsequently failed to do anything of note. I suppose it is fair to say he did not get the chance with regards to the final v Emirates Marketing Project.
I think what would make us different now is the lack of Levy.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
Ermm where to start with this. Your point is there were foundations, because Frank said so? You’re using the guy you don’t like as a manager to give evidence. Very confused.
As to the foundations Frank inherited, see my original post. He inherited attacking football, but none of those attackers bar Johnson who we upgraded.
The point about building on foundations is my original point. Few human endeavours are made in isolation. We build on what has come before. Liverpool when Slot took over were already a top team. The structures in the club are stable and new players could ease into a side that had familiarity.
On taking a new job where the last manager has just lifted the first trophy in decades, of course Frank isn’t going to say: “kin el mate you left a zhit show here for me to clean up!!”
I will un-confuse you.
I am not saying anything either way. I am merely presenting to you the fact that the man YOU said walked into a no-foundations situation was saying exactly the OPPOSITE when he joined. My POINT is that and that only. You literally said 'no solid foundations'!
I am not sure you read everything I write; I offered several possibilities as to why Frank delivered that specific quote. My reply to you on this is that he could have been less specific and still got a positive message across.
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Frank said that as a gracious way to transition, as the club and everyone knew there were some fans like yourself who were upset Ange was sacked after winning a trophy. It’s a generic thing people say.
You can separate the PR from the reality? And the full reality had not hit yet as Maddison and Solanke were fit when Frank joined. Kulu seemed like he could be back sooner. So Frank probably didn’t know he wouldn’t have much attacking foundation from the Ange side.
Does that make sense or are you still thinking there were strong foundations for Frank because he said so?
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thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
I know the PR game very, very well.
If your theory is right, then the PR's advising him should be sacked immediately. He is meant to be PR-savvy; if he did not mean what he specifically said, if he wanted to shat out a 'feel good platitiude', then he should've done precisely that.
I think it's fair comment re: Maddison and Solanke. I would counter that he sanctioned the signings of Kudus and Xavi. I would also add we fudged up the player he wanted in MGW. I would then add that he was quick to sanction the sale of Johnson (top goalscorer last season).
Anyway, this is the same conversation week in week out. Please make it change (not you, Spurs! Somehow!)...
tommysvr
Steve Carr
What has Thomas Frank ever done to prove he is good enough to manage Spurs?
metalgear
Chris Jones
i thought the team was getting better and better before the first goal, and really thought we would win the match.
the first goal was very unfortunate - it looks like a training thing where we double up on the wing to prevent the cross. Last time it was semenyo. I wonder if this is because porro is weak at protecting crosses. but having two there exposes us centrally.
gallagher, grey, vdv and tel were giving their all and more.
muani, odobert were letdowns. made all the wrong choices and didn't have a sense of urgency about them.
TF did not impress with his subs. Muani and Odobert continued to be ineffective and Solanke had very little supply.
Vicario weak in the corner too. Bergvall came on too late. Bissouma was great and I wonder if TF could have managed him better because he is still a very good player for rotation. Too late.
worse of all, the team didn't look like they enjoyed themselves out there. lots of unhappy faces.
i feel that vinai has a real problem on his hands now - not just getting better players, but retaining our best.
the first goal was very unfortunate - it looks like a training thing where we double up on the wing to prevent the cross. Last time it was semenyo. I wonder if this is because porro is weak at protecting crosses. but having two there exposes us centrally.
gallagher, grey, vdv and tel were giving their all and more.
muani, odobert were letdowns. made all the wrong choices and didn't have a sense of urgency about them.
TF did not impress with his subs. Muani and Odobert continued to be ineffective and Solanke had very little supply.
Vicario weak in the corner too. Bergvall came on too late. Bissouma was great and I wonder if TF could have managed him better because he is still a very good player for rotation. Too late.
worse of all, the team didn't look like they enjoyed themselves out there. lots of unhappy faces.
i feel that vinai has a real problem on his hands now - not just getting better players, but retaining our best.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
You may well be right that Frank said that as a gracious way to transition. And actually I think Frank would then be displaying some sort of arrogance that top managers need, a real strong self belief to think ‘actually, there wasn’t actually anything good I’m inheriting here, I have a massive job to change everything but I’m gonna give the platitude because some fans like Ange.’
What I would then find insane, is that there is some crazy head loss at the decision making level at the top of the club. The idea that Ange left a complete basket case with nothing good to build off. The idea that we needed to actually hire the *complete* antithesis of the man that just won the trophy, that saw us through exceptional circumstances, that clearly retained the backing of the players because of that achievement. The idea that we would suddenly decide to be all long term and double down on someone who was not proven as this level. Not in a management sense, but also not in a playing sense. I think this is important as you could say eg with Arteta that he’s not proven in a management sense when Arsenal hired him. But he’s at least played at the highest level, he has the personality that a high level club would expect.
If those were all the assumptions, and the decisions that had been made, then I think some people at the club need to take a long hard look at themselves and reflect on what guides their decisions. This has been a disaster. And I say this has someone who has really tried to look for the positive in Frank, and see the method in what he is trying to do. Which I do to some extent actually believe in. But the chemistry at the club right now is completely ruined. We made a bet on a guy who was extremely different to the old guy, who has also never had to work at a club with our profile either in a playing, coaching or management capacity. All talk of Kulusevski and Madders making any difference to this when we’ve just lost at home to West Ham and sit 14th in late January with our hardest run of fixtures to come…come on man.
I like Frank. But this very blatantly is not working, and has gone way worse than anyone at the club anticipated, regardless of the injuries he is dealing with which are less than last season. He said publicly he had good foundations, but you would assert he actually decided that his job was to just do everything *completely* differently, because actually he inherited something worth building on. Fine. But I would argue the fact that he is so different, and the fact that he has clearly decided he needed to manage in such a different way to the previous manager, might be the reason we find ourselves here. To assume there was nothing good he inherited, to assume it all needed to be ripped up, I think we put too much transition on to ourselves and it was a needless thing to do.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
To synthesise my point a bit…if Frank took over a Moyes team I think he’d have them higher in the league right now than we are. Be it West Ham or Everton, because his method and style in every respect wouldn’t be such a departure from what came before. I truly believe the fact that he is so different is part of the issue.
Vinai likes to talk about the fact that we have so much transition and it’s true. I don’t really believe that the lack of a Rebecca Caplethorn replacement until now is having any bearing on our on field results. But I do think sending a squad that was settled in one way of doing things into a completely different way, while the entire club is changing leaders in every direction, was an interesting and frankly needless choice.
Vinai likes to talk about the fact that we have so much transition and it’s true. I don’t really believe that the lack of a Rebecca Caplethorn replacement until now is having any bearing on our on field results. But I do think sending a squad that was settled in one way of doing things into a completely different way, while the entire club is changing leaders in every direction, was an interesting and frankly needless choice.
