*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v West Ham FC ***

[glasgowspur]

When was the last time one of our academy players had more than 15 minutes in a premier league game? Simons has played at Barca Psg and Liepzig hardly an academy player. Tel played for Bayern. If you think they are good thats fine but I dont think they are anywhere near the level of player we need to challenge for a top half of the table finish

One in a functional first team would be OK, four in the mess we're in just now is a recipe for disaster.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Spot on from Dawson… remember the last Wet Spam match I attended how thousands of Spurs fans were singing on the stairs behind the Goal Line bar for about half an hour after the final white whilst today I didn’t even have to queue up to get served because most of the crowd were already on their way home.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Baleforce]

When was the last time one of our academy players had more than 15 minutes in a premier league game? Simons has played at Barca Psg and Liepzig hardly an academy player. Tel played for Bayern. If you think they are good thats fine but I dont think they are anywhere near the level of player we need to challenge for a top half of the table finish

You didn’t say academy players initially, you said youngsters.

I’ve made no comment on their ability, only their age.

You should join the coaching staff, if we could get the team moving the goal posts half as quick as you the opposition would never hit the target ;-)

 

[SpurMeUp]

So two from attackers. Not great is it.
Not once did we have a passage of play where we released an attacker anywhere near being in on goal, not even to be in on the defence where a block was required.

Well the Odobert chance at the beginning was a passage of passing play and got in on goal. After that they scored and sat deep, which you’d expect from a Nuno team. But I’m not sure what your point is. Yes we were zhit?

 

[SpurMeUp]

This! There is no movement ahead of the ball! There was a great example when Odobert had the ball, Gallagher went on a run ahead of Odobert, who played the ball to Gallagher. The most obvious thing in the world would be Odobert busting a gut to overlap again or burst into the box, but Odobert just stopped!! Full stop! Gallagher played the ball, expecting Odobert to follow him, but there was no one there! I was furious at the time, and that can only be because of instructions, because every player in the world would instinctively make that run!

You think Frank tells Odobert to play that pass and then stop still. How does that even work? What is the instruction you’re hearing?

 

[SteveAWOL]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Nexus1967]

You didn’t say academy players initially, you said youngsters.

I’ve made no comment on their ability, only their age.

You should join the coaching staff, if we could get the team moving the goal posts half as quick as you the opposition would never hit the target ;-)

The point is that the players we have paid good money for and the amount of games they have played even though they are "young" are not good enough in my opinion. As for joining the coaching staff, I dont think there is any coach in the world to make Odebert, Tel and Simons into top class premiership players. Its just my opinion but if you think any of them are going to turn into top class players that the worlds top clubs will want to offer big money for then you are far more optimistic than me. And I have seen plenty of poor squads in all the years I have supported our team, but Tel Odebert Simons and Muani are average in my opinion, if you think different fair play.

 

[thfcsteff]

Frank didn't get solid foundations to build upon. Ange was all attack, and that attack he built isn't there for Frank. Litterally none of last seasons fowards or creative players are available. So Frank inherits a defence that needs sorting and has shipped lots of goals. He has to do the obvious: put in place a solid defensive foundation. And then the really difficult bit: try to build a new attack with inexperienced players who are lacking quality and confidence. Feed in a Tel, Simons or Muani into an establish attack, and they could do well. But without established attackers to build off, its a hard task.

But Frank isn't blameless. He has had to compromise. He's had to try and get goals, and appease fans and be more positive. That probably undermined the defensive. He might have liked to make us harder to beat first. Then develop the attack with better players. I think our defenders have scored more than our forwards? Which sums up the imballance, and the compromised squad.

With more time or a couple more senior players available, I think Frank would do a good job developing Tel and others. But now, with the fans wholly Frank out, and a perilous position in the league, it is hard for him to stay on. His only saving grace maybe that others don't want the gig. Whoever takes over has to get Tel, Odobert, Muani and Solanke putting the ball in the net. Would you take on that challange with no preseason?

I guess we have the CL to offer. And players returning, as well as millions in renumeration.

So.
Before you try and say I am coming at you because I am an 'Ange supporter' or some such other stuff, I just want to be very clear I am presenting a quote from Thomas Frank which he gave after being appointed in June. In fairness, we should note he had just got the job and might well have been totally trumping/lying to the public (which would then become another discussion). However, if taken at face value, I suspect Thomas disagreed when he joined...which then has me wondering whether he did enough due diligence, whether someone lied to HIM, or whether he is simply finding our merciless club and all it's circus elements too much?

“Huge congratulations to Ange,” Frank said at his unveiling.

“He will forever be a legend at Tottenham. It’s very important to understand that we all stand on the shoulders of others so I am going in on the foundations that Ange has built. I’m very humble about that and I’ll do my very best to continue the great work he put in."

 

[thfcsteff]

Well, Ange won a trophy in his second season. As he always had done, and as he said he would do. Not looking much like Thomas Frank will even see a second season with us right now, does it?

Exactly.
Far easier to keep hammering on about the guy last season who also had a ton of injuries yet still won us a European trophy. Don't look there, look there! And also far easier to say this is all because the players are so mediocre/poor that we should expect anyone to be able to get anything out of them.
THAT'S laughable to me. Genuinely.
There are many many factors involved in our current plight, and yes, historical mistakes, a lack of world class player acquisitions plus injuries have all conspired to be factors. But this club, and all it's weird ways, is too much for this manager. That's very clear.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So.
Before you try and say I am coming at you because I am an 'Ange supporter' or some such other stuff, I just want to be very clear I am presenting a quote from Thomas Frank which he gave after being appointed in June. In fairness, we should note he had just got the job and might well have been totally trumping/lying to the public (which would then become another discussion). However, if taken at face value, I suspect Thomas disagreed when he joined...which then has me wondering whether he did enough due diligence, whether someone lied to HIM, or whether he is simply finding our merciless club and all it's circus elements too much?

“Huge congratulations to Ange,” Frank said at his unveiling.

“He will forever be a legend at Tottenham. It’s very important to understand that we all stand on the shoulders of others so I am going in on the foundations that Ange has built. I’m very humble about that and I’ll do my very best to continue the great work he put in."

Ermm where to start with this. Your point is there were foundations, because Frank said so? You’re using the guy you don’t like as a manager to give evidence. Very confused.

As to the foundations Frank inherited, see my original post. He inherited attacking football, but none of those attackers bar Johnson who we upgraded.

The point about building on foundations is my original point. Few human endeavours are made in isolation. We build on what has come before. Liverpool when Slot took over were already a top team. The structures in the club were stable and new players could ease into a side that had familiarity.

On taking a new job where the last manager has just lifted the first trophy in decades, of course Frank isn’t going to say: “kin el mate you left a zhit show here for me to clean up!!”

 

[thfcsteff]

One left the club saying that we’re basically unmanageable under the current ownership, the other quickly returned to winning a trophy (having been sacked by us days before a cup final), leaving us as the only club he’s failed to do that at.

Form an orderly queue for those applications please, top-level managers!

I love you @Mikey10 so please know it isn't personal, but I do find myself disagreeing with you on lots at the moment (thankfully our mutal love of Spurs, dogs and decency prevails!)...

Anyway...to respond to the above. One took the job either thinking he could change Levy or genuinely knowing he couldn't and wringing us for what he could get (I believe he really thought he could change Levy, I also think the deaths in his inner friendship circle crushed him). The other came into the club on the premise he could 'win things' with the squad Poch had in 2019, and subsequently failed to do anything of note. I suppose it is fair to say he did not get the chance with regards to the final v Emirates Marketing Project.

I think what would make us different now is the lack of Levy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The worst legacy of Postecoglou are the injuries to players. Maybe it’s just bad luck. Kulu, Maddison and Solanke being out has undoubtedly had the biggest impact. It’s a crumbling foundation. No one’s fault but hard for Frank.

 

[thfcsteff]

Ermm where to start with this. Your point is there were foundations, because Frank said so? You’re using the guy you don’t like as a manager to give evidence. Very confused.

As to the foundations Frank inherited, see my original post. He inherited attacking football, but none of those attackers bar Johnson who we upgraded.

The point about building on foundations is my original point. Few human endeavours are made in isolation. We build on what has come before. Liverpool when Slot took over were already a top team. The structures in the club are stable and new players could ease into a side that had familiarity.

On taking a new job where the last manager has just lifted the first trophy in decades, of course Frank isn’t going to say: “kin el mate you left a zhit show here for me to clean up!!”

I will un-confuse you.

I am not saying anything either way. I am merely presenting to you the fact that the man YOU said walked into a no-foundations situation was saying exactly the OPPOSITE when he joined. My POINT is that and that only. You literally said 'no solid foundations'!

I am not sure you read everything I write; I offered several possibilities as to why Frank delivered that specific quote. My reply to you on this is that he could have been less specific and still got a positive message across.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I will un-confuse you.

I am not saying anything either way. I am merely presenting to you the fact that the man YOU said walked into a no-foundations situation was saying exactly the OPPOSITE when he joined. My POINT is that and that only. You literally said 'no solid foundations'!

I am not sure you read everything I write; I offered several possibilities as to why Frank delivered that specific quote. My reply to you on this is that he could have been less specific and still got a positive message across.

Frank said that as a gracious way to transition, as the club and everyone knew there were some fans like yourself who were upset Ange was sacked after winning a trophy. It’s a generic thing people say.

You can separate the PR from the reality? And the full reality had not hit yet as Maddison and Solanke were fit when Frank joined. Kulu seemed like he could be back sooner. So Frank probably didn’t know he wouldn’t have much attacking foundation from the Ange side.

Does that make sense or are you still thinking there were strong foundations for Frank because he said so?

 

[thfcsteff]

Frank said that as a gracious way to transition, as the club and everyone knew there were some fans like yourself who were upset Ange was sacked after winning a trophy. It’s a generic thing people say.

You can separate the PR from the reality? And the full reality had not hit yet as Maddison and Solanke were fit when Frank joined. Kulu seemed like he could be back sooner. So Frank probably didn’t know he wouldn’t have much attacking foundation from the Ange side.

I know the PR game very, very well.
If your theory is right, then the PR's advising him should be sacked immediately. He is meant to be PR-savvy; if he did not mean what he specifically said, if he wanted to shat out a 'feel good platitiude', then he should've done precisely that.

I think it's fair comment re: Maddison and Solanke. I would counter that he sanctioned the signings of Kudus and Xavi. I would also add we fudged up the player he wanted in MGW. I would then add that he was quick to sanction the sale of Johnson (top goalscorer last season).
Anyway, this is the same conversation week in week out. Please make it change (not you, Spurs! Somehow!)...

 

[tommysvr]

Genuinely the funniest thing I think I’ve ever seen on this forum, mate. Thank you! I needed a laugh tonight.

What has Thomas Frank ever done to prove he is good enough to manage Spurs?

 

[metalgear]

i thought the team was getting better and better before the first goal, and really thought we would win the match.

the first goal was very unfortunate - it looks like a training thing where we double up on the wing to prevent the cross. Last time it was semenyo. I wonder if this is because porro is weak at protecting crosses. but having two there exposes us centrally.

gallagher, grey, vdv and tel were giving their all and more.
muani, odobert were letdowns. made all the wrong choices and didn't have a sense of urgency about them.

TF did not impress with his subs. Muani and Odobert continued to be ineffective and Solanke had very little supply.
Vicario weak in the corner too. Bergvall came on too late. Bissouma was great and I wonder if TF could have managed him better because he is still a very good player for rotation. Too late.

worse of all, the team didn't look like they enjoyed themselves out there. lots of unhappy faces.

i feel that vinai has a real problem on his hands now - not just getting better players, but retaining our best.