OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v South Coast's Biggest Club

[AdamB]

Spot on. This is where we have been entirely remiss. We signed 26 ( yes 26!) players in the Poch era and how many of them improved the first team? Son, Toby, Wanyama (for one season) .....after that I am struggling. Last season we sold our only plan B player ( Llorente) and our best ( admittedly unperforming ) right back. We didn't replace either of these players.

Poch left us with an unbalanced and underperforming squad, which seemingly had lost motivation and was severely underperforming. None of his mega signings have hit the ground running. Compare and contrast our winger Clarke ( who can't get in a championship side) with the impact James has had at Man U. They were both bought for similar money.

It is this poor recruitment policy for which I hold Poch and HIS recruitment team largely responsible for the current state of affairs at our club. We need to look no further than Leicester to see how to replace quality players they lost ( Kante, Mahrez) with quality young players. This is where we have gone badly wrong. We desperately need a DoF and a new recruitment team.

So I do agree with that, however for every example of selling Mahrez and signing Maddison (say), there are equivalent pairs of trades done by clubs which havent worked out. Simple reason is that lower priced players are higher risk - most commonly because they're not fully proven. Even Liverpool - sell Coutinho, sign Keita or AOC - have failed in this respect, albeit at a higher level.

To get back into top 4 contention regularly we need 3-4 signings...1-2 CBs, a RB and a DM. All £50m - £60 bracket players if you want someone vaguely proven. 2 of them in Jan and we have half a chance of top 4. Problem is that even Aarons, who is half proven, is being quoted at £45m. If we want to try it at lower risk, then you do sign players like Aurier, Sanchez etc in the £25m - £40m bracket...but you need a combination of better recruitment, luck and various other things for it to work

Levy has some massive decisions ahead of him

 

[milo]

As was said at the time by a few of us, he was saying get rid of some "names" which needed turfing such as Alderweireld, and rather than spend pennies on replacements lower down the list, go big on ones which really propel us forth.

I think that was key. He really wanted the players who were no longer buying into his methods out of the door 18 months ago and they are all still here now.

 

[Hootnow]

They (Keane and Berns) were both desperate to leave though, had we kept one they wouldn’t have delivered 26 goals.

Once someone checks out you can’t move them on quick enough.

Then move one or both on earlier in the window and take the financial hit to preserve the footballing side. Or buy a decent replacement earlier in the window.

We made the right business decision (holding out for the maximum and getting almost £60 million for the two, a huge sum at the time) and ended up fudging up the season from a footballing point of view. So much so that we had to spend money firing the manager and then more money in January because we were genuinely looking in serious trouble.

It was a fudging stupid window, just as 2018 was a fudging stupid year.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Agreed mate, but it's pointless to bring it up now. All it will do is divide the fanbase again.

The folks who were vociferously calling for Poch's head know who they are. The folks who supported Poch know who they are.

Thinking back to 2018, the folks who argued it was a genius move to make no signings know who they are. The folks who thought Poch wanted us to do absolutely nothing when he said we needed to be 'brave' know who they are.

Point is, we all know what stances we took, and when. Point is to learn from the times we were wrong - together, as a fanbase.

Sadly, that isn't happening either. If we sign no one in January, a bunch of people will still say it's a genius move by Levy, or that he's keeping the imaginary powder dry for some time that will never come. If we sign no one in the summer, it will be a similar story. When Mourinho is sacked, it will be all his fault and not the fact that the support structure at the club is set up to allow our coaches to fail.

Clubs that believe in their managers don't act like we do, regularly, for twenty f*cking years. We value the bargain bin option every time, because we are run to make a profit first, foremost and always. And then we are surprised when it leads to this sort of thing.

I saw this unfold with Juande Ramos, when he asked for at least one of Keane and Berbatov to be kept and saw them both sold, to be replaced by Pavlyuchenko and Fraizer Campbell on loan. And then we sacked him six months later.
I saw this unfold with Rent-a-quote, when we signed Ryan Nelsen and Louis Saha on frees in January 2012 when he was begging for players - when we were top of the table, challenging for the title. And then we sacked him six months later.
I saw this unfold with AVB, when he asked for Moutinho and got Clint Dempsey on deadline day, and then when he asked for David Villa and Hulk and got Soldado and Chadli (among others). And then we sacked him six months later.
I saw this unfold with Mauricio f*cking Pochettino, a man who deserved our trust and love more than any other, when he asked for a squad rebuild in 2018, and again in summer 2019. He didn't get it. And then we sacked him six months later.
I will see this unfold with Jose Mourinho, when he asks for players in January and in the summer and gets none, if he's lucky. And then we will sack him six months later.

And every time, it will be the fault of the manager in question, because we never f*cking learn from the same f*cking thing - and we never question the man above him, and the way we're owned and run.

I don't want us to turn on each other - and if ignoring the rewriting of history re: Poch accomplishes that, so be it. But I would like us to learn as a fanbase - and we won't.

Most of all, I'd like Daniel f*cking Levy to learn, but he doesn't seem to want to either.

With Daniel Levy though, for all the missteps, we have always come out the other side stronger. Harry was better than Jol despite the misstep of Ramos. Poch was better than Harry, despite the misstep of AVB.

Levy makes mistakes. With big fudging bells on sometimes. But over the course of his chairmanship, we've steadily improved in every respect and beyond recognition.

The major frustration has been lack of trophies but that aside I can forgive the times we've taken a step back because we've invariably taken several steps forward right after.

 

[Baleforce]

Then move one or both on earlier in the window and take the financial hit to preserve the footballing side. Or buy a decent replacement earlier in the window.

We made the right business decision (holding out for the maximum and getting almost £60 million for the two, a huge sum at the time) and ended up fudging up the season from a footballing point of view. So much so that we had to spend money firing the manager and then more money in January because we were genuinely looking in serious trouble.

It was a fudging stupid window, just as 2018 was a fudging stupid year.

United had agreed the deal with Berba months before, he wasn’t talking to anyone else and United knew they had him on their own timescale.

The Keane deal happened late from nowhere iirc.

Also, we could have done a better job with Pav, he obviously had talent but we failed to improve him.

 

[Hootnow]

United had agreed the deal with Berba months before, he wasn’t talking to anyone else and United knew they had him on their own timescale.

The Keane deal happened late from nowhere iirc.

Also, we could have done a better job with Pav, he obviously had talent but we failed to improve him.

Liverpool declared their interest in Keane quite early in the window and having a quick search now, was sold on 28th July so actually not that late.

The Berbatov sale was us digging in about price and Man Utd thinking they could get him cheaper than that price only finally being pushed by the takeover at Emirates Marketing Project and their deadline day bid for Berbatov at our asking price.

If you're going to dig in like that, you either sell early or you don't sell at all imo.

 

[DubaiSpur]

With Daniel Levy though, for all the missteps, we have always come out the other side stronger. Harry was better than Jol despite the misstep of Ramos. Poch was better than Harry, despite the misstep of AVB.

Levy makes mistakes. With big fudging bells on sometimes. But over the course of his chairmanship, we've steadily improved in every respect and beyond recognition.

The major frustration has been lack of trophies but that aside I can forgive the times we've taken a step back because we've invariably taken several steps forward right after.

There's a separate discussion to be had on how much of that was down to Levy and how much of that is down to the vast riches of the Premier League over the 20-year timespan he's been in charge, but that's an aside. He's improved us, but I doubt he's the genius he's portrayed as.

For now, the important thing to realize as a fanbase is that Poch was not a bad manager - he was undermined by Levy, and we fell for it and called for his head when we should have been singing his fudging name to the heavens and back - because he could have been our Wenger, our Ferguson, our dynasty-builder.

Mourinho is not a bad manager, and calling for his head will be a similar mistake, because he will also be undermined by Levy. As a fanbase, we need to realize that this bunch of players is singularly spineless, and that both Pochettino and Mourinho knew and know more about winning matches and trophies than Levy does. Levy knows how to make a profit, how to save money, and how to build infrastructure. But he does not know how to manage the football side of things, and when things go wrong (like they're doing now), the focus should be on him and his utter lack of belief or a support structure for his coaches- not on the coach involved.

We lost something beautiful with Pochettino, and replaced it with utter pragmatism in the form of Mourinho. But whatever the merits of that decision, Mourinho needs to be backed by Levy to clear out these chancers and start afresh. Now, in January - *now*. Abolutely nothing should be said about how hard it is to do business in January, or how miserably cheap Levy wants to be.

Of course, we won't get it, but we need to realize that the managers aren't the problem. Mourinho isn't the problem now.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So I do agree with that, however for every example of selling Mahrez and signing Maddison (say), there are equivalent pairs of trades done by clubs which havent worked out. Simple reason is that lower priced players are higher risk - most commonly because they're not fully proven. Even Liverpool - sell Coutinho, sign Keita or AOC - have failed in this respect, albeit at a higher level.

To get back into top 4 contention regularly we need 3-4 signings...1-2 CBs, a RB and a DM. All £50m - £60 bracket players if you want someone vaguely proven. 2 of them in Jan and we have half a chance of top 4. Problem is that even Aarons, who is half proven, is being quoted at £45m. If we want to try it at lower risk, then you do sign players like Aurier, Sanchez etc in the £25m - £40m bracket...but you need a combination of better recruitment, luck and various other things for it to work

Levy has some massive decisions ahead of him

Or don’t buy from the UK market which has an impact on price

 

[DeanoAustin]

There's a separate discussion to be had on how much of that was down to Levy and how much of that is down to the vast riches of the Premier League over the 20-year timespan he's been in charge, but that's an aside.

For now, the important thing to realize as a fanbase is that Poch was not a bad manager - he was undermined by Levy, and we fell for it and called for his head when we should have been singing his fudging name to the heavens and back - because he could have been our Wenger, our Ferguson, our dynasty-builder.

Mourinho is not a bad manager, and calling for his head will be a similar mistake, because he will also be undermined by Levy. As a fanbase, we need to realize that this bunch of players is singularly spineless, and that both Pochettino and Mourinho knew and know more about winning matches and trophies than Levy does. Levy knows how to make a profit, how to save money, and how to build infrastructure. But he does not know how to manage the football side of things, and when things go wrong (like they're doing now), the focus should be on him and his utter lack of belief or a support structure for his coaches- not on the coach involved.

We lost something beautiful with Pochettino, and replaced it with utter pragmatism in the form of Mourinho. But whatever the merits of that decision, Mourinho needs to be backed by Levy to clear out these chancers and start afresh. Now, in January - *now*. Abolutely nothing should be said about how hard it is to do business in January, or how miserably cheap Levy wants to be.

Of course, we won't get it, but we need to realize that the managers aren't the problem.

In the 15 years before Jol, we never finished top 6 in the league. Since then, we've finished top 6 in every season bar 2. We've been top 4 on six occasions. We had our most consistent spell of top league positions ever.

What Levy has done has improved us relative to the competition who also benefitted from the PL riches. The fact he's done it in a time when two clubs won the lottery is even more remarkable.

There's a fair bit to criticise Levy for but it can't be argued that we haven't improved in every respect under his chairmanship.

 

[Baleforce]

Liverpool declared their interest in Keane quite early in the window and having a quick search now, was sold on 28th July so actually not that late.

The Berbatov sale was us digging in about price and Man Utd thinking they could get him cheaper than that price only finally being pushed by the takeover at Emirates Marketing Project and their deadline day bid for Berbatov at our asking price.

If you're going to dig in like that, you either sell early or you don't sell at all imo.

Keano, righto, I just remember being surprised by it so assumed august.

United were in total control of the Berbs timeline unless we gave him away.

It’s not just about the one deal in isolation, each negotiation sets a precedent and an expectation for the future.

 

[Pirate55]

Poch was working with two hands tied behind his back in the market, we wouldn't shift players on he wanted to sell and wouldn't pay the wages/fees for those he wanted to sign - you can argue he should be be better at buying players whilst balancing the books but i think you'd be focussing your ire in the wrong direction

There were several occasions that Poch was apparently offered decent players and reportedly said "they wouldn't improve the squad" . I think Grealish and Shakiri were in that category iirc. Out of 26 players recruited under his auspices, to have only 3 or 4 work out is a shocking hit rate. Look at Leicester for a comparison.And they lost several top quality players in the meantime. Our recruitment under Poch has been shambolic. Instead for buying 20 wasters, I am sure Levy would rather have signed 4-5 decent players. We could have also sold Eriksen and Toby in their prime ( as someone just suggested) and reinvested in quality elsewhere - like Liverpool did with Coutinho. Poch was too stubborn and I think he really believed we had the best squad - or at least one incapable of being improved.

 

[DubaiSpur]

In the 15 years before Jol, we never finished top 6 in the league. Since then, we've finished top 6 in every season bar 2. We've been top 4 on six occasions. We had our most consistent spell of top league positions ever.

What Levy has done has improved us relative to the competition who also benefitted from the PL riches. The fact he's done it in a time when two clubs won the lottery is even more remarkable.

There's a fair bit to criticise Levy for but it can't be argued that we haven't improved in every respect under his chairmanship.

We have improved, but over a 20-year timespan, reasonably solid handling would result in improvement from the awful baseline of the 1990s - no genius or remarkable feats required. Again though, that's a discussion for another time.

For now (and I can't believe I'm saying this), people need to back Mourinho, and realize that this shower isn't down to him - it's down to Levy backing these spineless chancers on the pitch over Poch.

 

[billyiddo]

There were several occasions that Poch was apparently offered decent players and reportedly said "they wouldn't improve the squad" . I think Grealish and Shakiri were in that category iirc. Out of 26 players recruited under his auspices, to have only 3 or 4 work out is a shocking hit rate. Look at Leicester for a comparison.And they lost several top quality players in the meantime. Our recruitment under Poch has been shambolic. Instead for buying 20 wasters, I am sure Levy would rather have signed 4-5 decent players. We could have also sold Eriksen and Toby in their prime ( as someone just suggested) and reinvested in quality elsewhere - like Liverpool did with Coutinho. Poch was too stubborn and I think he really believed we had the best squad - or at least one incapable of being improved.

Yes that was me - but if your chairman won't sell what do you do?

Leicester have a recruitment team in place that work independently of the manager, we do not, we have a few contacts that throw up names who get offered to the manager when we realize his actual targets don't align with our break even policy.

Hands tied behind his back and supporters expect him to deliver each season without so much as a misstep

 

[Baleforce]

We have improved, but over a 20-year timespan, reasonably solid handling would result in improvement from the awful baseline of the 1990s - no genius or remarkable feats required. Again though, that's a discussion for another time.

For now (and I can't believe I'm saying this), people need to back Mourinho, and realize that this shower isn't down to him - it's down to Levy backing these spineless chancers on the pitch over Poch.

The thing is, we have hard data on that, other clubs in our situation at the advent of the PL include, Everton, Villa, Leeds and Forest. Genius and remarkable feats are exactly what we’re required.

 

[Baleforce]

Yes that was me - but if your chairman won't sell what do you do?

Leicester have a recruitment team in place that work independently of the manager, we do not, we have a few contacts that throw up names who get offered to the manager when we realize his actual targets don't align with our break even policy.

Hands tied behind his back and supporters expect him to deliver each season without so much as a misstep

Yep, that’s the job. It’s the same for Jose.

 

[DubaiSpur]

There were several occasions that Poch was apparently offered decent players and reportedly said "they wouldn't improve the squad" . I think Grealish and Shakiri were in that category iirc. Out of 26 players recruited under his auspices, to have only 3 or 4 work out is a shocking hit rate. Look at Leicester for a comparison.And they lost several top quality players in the meantime. Our recruitment under Poch has been shambolic. Instead for buying 20 wasters, I am sure Levy would rather have signed 4-5 decent players. We could have also sold Eriksen and Toby in their prime ( as someone just suggested) and reinvested in quality elsewhere - like Liverpool did with Coutinho. Poch was too stubborn and I think he really believed we had the best squad - or at least one incapable of being improved.

That is especially untrue, because the wasters were signed because they were cheaper than the players Poch wanted.

Grealish was one Poch wanted. We went for him with a derisory offer (truly derisory - something like 5m + Onomah), and then backed out when Villa demanded his full value. Instead, we signed nobody.
Sadio Mane was one Poch wanted. We went for him, showed him around the ground, and then Levy cheaped out and wouldn't pay 5m to get the deal over the line. We went for the useless N'Koudou instead.
Wijnaldum was one Poch wanted. We didn't go for him at all, panicked and went for Sissoko on deadline day - who was emphatically not a player Poch wanted.

The list goes on, and on - right from the very beginning of Poch's tenure here in 2014, when he wanted Schneiderlin and Jay Rodriguez (Premier-league proven players from his Soton side), and Levy cheaped out and went for Benjamin f*cking Stambouli and Federico Fazio instead.

The point to realize here is that Levy didn't want to sign 4-5 decent players, because they cost more money than he was willing to pay. The randos we did sign, we signed because they were cheaper than the alternatives Poch actually wanted.

This revisionism about Poch's recruitment being bad, as if it were Poch wanting these bargain-bin buys....it has to stop. He wanted quality. Levy gave him bargain bins, many of whom are still in our squad now.

 

[Baleforce]

That is especially untrue, because the wasters were signed because they were cheaper than the players Poch wanted.

Grealish was one Poch wanted. We went for him with a derisory offer (truly derisory - something like 5m + Onomah), and then backed out when Villa demanded his full value. Instead, we signed nobody.
Sadio Mane was one Poch wanted. We went for him, showed him around the ground, and then Levy cheaped out and wouldn't pay 5m to get the deal over the line. We went for the useless N'Koudou instead.
Wijnaldum was one Poch wanted. We didn't go for him at all, panicked and went for Sissoko on deadline day - who was emphatically not a player Poch wanted.

The list goes on, and on - right from the very beginning of Poch's tenure here in 2014, when he wanted Schneiderlin and Jay Rodriguez (Premier-league proven players from his Soton side), and Levy cheaped out and went for Benjamin f*cking Stambouli and Federico Fazio instead.

The point to realize here is that Levy didn't want to sign 4-5 decent players, because they cost more money than he was willing to pay. The randos we did sign, we signed because they were cheaper than the alternatives Poch actually wanted.

This revisionism about Poch's recruitment being bad, as if it were Poch wanting these bargain-bin buys....it has to stop. He wanted quality. Levy gave him bargain bins, many of whom are still in our squad now.

All of those players, with the exception of Mane, turned out to be brick, so that’s a lot of bullets dodged.

Mane supposedly chose Liverpool because they were offering triple the wages.

 

[DeanoAustin]

All of those players, with the exception of Mane, turned out to be brick, so that’s a lot of bullets dodged.

Mane supposedly chose Liverpool because they were offering triple the wages.

Grealish is a good player and Liverpool fans would argue Wijnaldum is too. Other than that, I'd agree.

 

[StephenH]

Levy is not doing any of this out of some warped spite!
He is governed by events on and off the pitch!
Poch was floundering due to squad decay and familiarity giving way to the contempt with some player-wise!
Mourinho now has to step up and organise.
He may well have to wait till the summer for new player though imho

 

[Pirate55]

Poch was working with two hands tied behind his back in the market, we wouldn't shift players on he wanted to sell and wouldn't pay the wages/fees for those he wanted to sign - you can argue he should be be better at buying players whilst balancing the books but i think you'd be focussing your ire in the wrong direction

His stubbornness led to him tieing at least one of those hands behind his own back. Don't you think he had discussions with Levy along the lines :

Levy - the Club has £ x available for new players ( plus any amount raised in sales). You can buy 6 players or one - as long as the total doesn't exceed £ x)

That is the prudent way to run a club.

Poch ( and his recruitment team) failed miserably to find the right players at the right price.