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***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Arsenal***

thfcsteff said:
I wanted Winks to start and Dele deeper. I did not want Dembele to start. I can only assume that Winks was only able to play for 30 mins today. I personally think it was a mistake playing Dembele today, but unlike you, I TRUST a manager who has CONSISTENTLY shown we are on an ASCENDANT TRAJECTORY!!!!!!
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Unlike me? What, do I want him sacked? Pilloried? Burned? Where do you get off on this sort of holier-than-thou stuff?
He gets things wrong - he gets most things right, but he gets some things *wrong*. You admit it too, but then you go off the deep end with this 'I TRUST THIS MANAGER YOU DONT I AM THE TRUE BELIEVER' nonsense. More than once.

thfcsteff said:
No, NOT true!!!!! I'm sorry, you're just spouting because you're angry. Dele ran hard today, it just didn't happen for him. He was well-marked and the Goons did a great job of shutting down Tripper and Davies, forcing each midfield ball to be at first either square or back, and slowing down the speed at which we could move through the gears.
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You mention Trippier and Davies being well marked - fair point. However, that takes two Arsenal players out of the game in offensive situations, since they're forced to sit wide and mark both of them. Which should theoretically leave space in the middle - which was *there*, we saw it when Sissoko wandered into the middle numerous times, and we saw it when our players (very rarely) beat the first press and emerged into the space ahead of Mustafi, Monreal and Koscielny. The space was there - however, our play was far, far, far too slow to take *any* advantage of it, and Dele was dispossessed far too often by the very same Arsenal press you describe in another post. It can't be both - he can't both be well-marked and closed down if the marking job is also being done on all the other players like Trippier and Davies. There are too few players on the pitch to do both.


thfcsteff said:
Your idea of 'outclass' is obviously very, VERY different to mine, because frankly, I think you're talking absolute tosh.
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You mentioned Arsenal Fan TV in another post - said I was talking like someone from that show.
Well, there's a guy on Arsenal Fan TV who always shows up in every interview in full Arsenal gear from head to toe - Arsenal hat, scarf, headphones, shirt, jacket, tracksuit pants, socks, shoes. And, no matter *what* the situation, he usually tries to justify it - the worst possible defeats (5-1 against Bayern, those types) and he says 'well, I'm disappointed, but we mustn't forget that it's been raining, and that was what done us in today'. Not tactics, not the players, not Wenger. The wet pitch.
If I talk like some bloke from AFTV, you do too - you're talking like *that* bloke.

thfcsteff said:
If YOU think today was even CLOSE to that brick-show in Geordieland, then we'd have lost by 5 and given up. We didn't. Nobody's disputing that we ended up being outfought, nobody's suggesting it was not enormously disappointing and nobody's suggesting we couldn't have played much better. What disappoints me MORE is the IMO shocking overreaction and lack of context offered by repeat opinions such as yours. Often in these games, details decide games. And that was the same again today. The reason I am disappointed is that I thought we would (and should!) win because we are the better side. We did not show it today.THAT is why I am personally disappointed. Sorry...I cannot entertain the repeated hyperbolic negativity!
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Oh, it wasn't close to that day in Saudi Sportswashing Machine. If we played like we played that day, we would have lost 15-0. Arsenal are better than Saudi Sportswashing Machine, and would exploit that sort of Spurs-esque collapse brutally. And as for 'nobody disputing' that we ended up being outfought, *people are* doing just that. They say it was a close game, that we had an even game, that the expected goals show that we were even. Even Poch said that in the post-match presser (although obviously he has to) when the reality is that we wee outfought, outthought and (yes) outclassed. The 'shocking overreaction and lack of context' is me getting angry at this constant refrain that it was the small details that led to us losing, that the ref is what done us in, that this was fine and we were just unlucky. We were not - we were thoroughly, well beaten. And I thought we would win too - like a fool, for the first time in my life, I said sod it, we're slight favorites for this. We're doing well, we have a lot of motivation, we're on a good run of form and coming off of a legendary result, our players are committed, our manager is brilliant. We're slight favourites for this.

But no. Always f*cking Spurs. It f*cking hurts, man. It hurts to be proven wrong just when you dare to shed the cynicism of a lifetime for a bit of hope. And it makes you doubly , triply, monumentally cautious of ever thinking of doing the same again. No matter who leads the team and who is in it at any given time. If you stake your hope on the fight that the team always shows, and then they show *none* just when you do so...well, what else are you supposed to do?
 
Well there we have it.
Lots of tears and much gnashing of teeth.
We all need to remember we are just at the beginning of this journey.
There will be more heartache for sure as we travel.
But try and keep calm COYS

Next Dortmund >>>>>>>>>>

And the Madrid derby soon for me.

Night night :)
 
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thfcsteff said:
Nah Dubai, I'm done. You stick to your guns mate. Glad they aren't mine. I explained in an earlier comment the factors I felt contributed, but unless I stick the sword to all of them and burn them at the stake, it won't be enough for you. So enjoy the misery mate...but trust me, when you surface for air, you'll see it's WAY over the top.

I tell you, I am bordering on embarrassed at your reaction. You keep asking 'what' is our fault, it's been mapped out by several postees, it's been discussed, other contributing factors offered as well as other details. There are even the dreaded 'stats' which offer support. But you'd rather bang on about 'Kong Eriksen' and 'our ickle players'...again, embarrassing IMO. I have criticisms but I will also apply context, because today there was an awful fudging lot of it to apply. Enjoy the rest of the weekend as best you can!
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Fine. 'Stats' don't offer sh*t, incidentally - as someone else rightly pointed out (I think @Pirate55 ) the great and vaunted xG was worthless, because there were two wildly different values from two different sources. One which showed an ostensibly close game, and one which clearly showed Arsenal's dominance. Pick one to prove your point as necessary - what wonderful, great things xG statistics are. Surely the statistical revolution in football is upon us.

As for the rest, apply all the context you want to whatever criticisms you think appropriate - if *any*. Personally, I'm just going to go for a walk in the bitter cold and kick a passing dog if I find one, because f*ck football and f*ck hope.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Unlike me? What, do I want him sacked? Pilloried? Burned? Where do you get off on this sort of holier-than-thou stuff?
He gets things wrong - he gets most things right, but he gets some things *wrong*. You admit it too, but then you go off the deep end with this 'I TRUST THIS MANAGER YOU DONT I AM THE TRUE BELIEVER' nonsense. More than once.



You mention Trippier and Davies being well marked - fair point. However, that takes two Arsenal players out of the game in offensive situations, since they're forced to sit wide and mark both of them. Which should theoretically leave space in the middle - which was *there*, we saw it when Sissoko wandered into the middle numerous times, and we saw it when our players (very rarely) beat the first press and emerged into the space ahead of Mustafi, Monreal and Koscielny. The space was there - however, our play was far, far, far too slow to take *any* advantage of it, and Dele was dispossessed far too often by the very same Arsenal press you describe in another post. It can't be both - he can't both be well-marked and closed down if the marking job is also being done on all the other players like Trippier and Davies. There are too few players on the pitch to do both.




You mentioned Arsenal Fan TV in another post - said I was talking like someone from that show.
Well, there's a guy on Arsenal Fan TV who always shows up in every interview in full Arsenal gear from head to toe - Arsenal hat, scarf, headphones, shirt, jacket, tracksuit pants, socks, shoes. And, no matter *what* the situation, he usually tries to justify it - the worst possible defeats (5-1 against Bayern, those types) and he says 'well, I'm disappointed, but we mustn't forget that it's been raining, and that was what done us in today'. Not tactics, not the players, not Wenger. The wet pitch.
If I talk like some bloke from AFTV, you do too - you're talking like *that* bloke.



Oh, it wasn't close to that day in Saudi Sportswashing Machine. If we played like we played that day, we would have lost 15-0. Arsenal are better than Saudi Sportswashing Machine, and would exploit that sort of Spurs-esque collapse brutally. And as for 'nobody disputing' that we ended up being outfought, *people are* doing just that. They say it was a close game, that we had an even game, that the expected goals show that we were even. Even Poch said that in the post-match presser (although obviously he has to) when the reality is that we wee outfought, outthought and (yes) outclassed. The 'shocking overreaction and lack of context' is me getting angry at this constant refrain that it was the small details that led to us losing, that the ref is what done us in, that this was fine and we were just unlucky. We were not - we were thoroughly, well beaten. And I thought we would win too - like a fool, for the first time in my life, I said sod it, we're slight favorites for this. We're doing well, we have a lot of motivation, we're on a good run of form and coming off of a legendary result, our players are committed, our manager is brilliant. We're slight favourites for this.

But no. Always f*cking Spurs. It f*cking hurts, man. It hurts to be proven wrong just when you dare to shed the cynicism of a lifetime for a bit of hope. And it makes you doubly , triply, monumentally cautious of ever thinking of doing the same again. No matter who leads the team and who is in it at any given time. If you stake your hope on the fight that the team always shows, and then they show *none* just when you do so...well, what else are you supposed to do?
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Enough of the small talk. Will you two just get a room and get it over with.;)
 
DubaiSpur said:
Fine. 'Stats' don't offer sh*t, incidentally - as someone else rightly pointed out (I think @Pirate55 ) the great and vaunted xG was worthless, because there were two wildly different values from two different sources. One which showed an ostensibly close game, and one which clearly showed Arsenal's dominance. Pick one to prove your point as necessary - what wonderful, great things xG statistics are. Surely the statistical revolution in football is upon us.

As for the rest, apply all the context you want to whatever criticisms you think appropriate - if *any*. Personally, I'm just going to go for a walk in the bitter cold and kick a passing dog if I find one, because f*ck football and f*ck hope.
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I wasn't going to reply to any other posts, but then you said that!!!!!
No bueno Senõr!

p.s. the marking...Trippier and Davies were taken out of the game by the high-press and also the quick service to them. We were never conformably allowed to find them. It is a problem when we play Dembele. Had Winks played (and had we been able to play Dier as a DM), when that press comes in like it did, both are fluid and comfortable on the ball as well as fast in their distribution.

IMG_0844.JPG
 
thfcsteff said:
I wasn't going to reply to any other posts, but then you said that!!!!!
No bueno Senõr!

p.s. the marking...Trippier and Davies were taken out of the game by the high-press and also the quick service to them. We were never conformably allowed to find them. It is a problem when we play Dembele. Had Winks played (and had we been able to play Dier as a DM), when that press comes in like it did, both are fluid and comfortable on the ball as well as fast in their distribution.

View attachment 3789
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I agree - the press killed us in general, although I disagree in assuming that Winks would have helped. He didn't help when he came on, after all. Although to some extent, the game had long gone by then.
And, honestly, no sarcasm - that's a bloody regal-looking doggo.
 
DubaiSpur said:
I agree - the press killed us in general, although I disagree in assuming that Winks would have helped. He didn't help when he came on, after all. Although to some extent, the game had long gone by then.
And, honestly, no sarcasm - that's a bloody regal-looking doggo.
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Thanks mate. I love her dearly. This is her 'Norwegian Black Metal' look!!!!!
Winks made a couple of excellent movements/passes in his first few minutes on the pitch, then Kane and All left, Wenger brought Coquillan (sp!) on to stiffen up the midfield and cut out the exact areas Winks was threatening to exploit and the game was over :-(
 
thfcsteff said:
I wasn't going to reply to any other posts, but then you said that!!!!!
No bueno Senõr!

p.s. the marking...Trippier and Davies were taken out of the game by the high-press and also the quick service to them. We were never conformably allowed to find them. It is a problem when we play Dembele. Had Winks played (and had we been able to play Dier as a DM), when that press comes in like it did, both are fluid and comfortable on the ball as well as fast in their distribution.

View attachment 3789
Click to expand...

That is one bad ass looking dog! Is he called Burzum? :p
 
DubaiSpur said:
Fine. 'Stats' don't offer sh*t, incidentally - as someone else rightly pointed out (I think @Pirate55 ) the great and vaunted xG was worthless, because there were two wildly different values from two different sources. One which showed an ostensibly close game, and one which clearly showed Arsenal's dominance. Pick one to prove your point as necessary - what wonderful, great things xG statistics are. Surely the statistical revolution in football is upon us.

As for the rest, apply all the context you want to whatever criticisms you think appropriate - if *any*. Personally, I'm just going to go for a walk in the bitter cold and kick a passing dog if I find one, because f*ck football and f*ck hope.
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They're only contradictory if you don't understand them or apply them correctly.
 
Pochettino wears this one I'm afraid.. His pre match comments about this being "just another game, we need to win all games" were just plain wrong.

Yes we need to win when we can, but this is not and never will be just another game. The players went out with that attitude in mind and never showed the required passion or desire.

I hope the message in the dressing room after the game was very different to his public interviews, because there is no fudging way he can be happy with that performance and the effort was a mile away from being 'good'

Let's hope we can use this as a catalyst, because alarm bells are ringing otherwise.
 
nayenezgani said:
Pochettino wears this one I'm afraid.. His pre match comments about this being "just another game, we need to win all games" were just plain wrong.

Yes we need to win when we can, but this is not and never will be just another game. The players went out with that attitude in mind and never showed the required passion or desire.

I hope the message in the dressing room after the game was very different to his public interviews, because there is no fudging way he can be happy with that performance and the effort was a mile away from being 'good'

Let's hope we can use this as a catalyst, because alarm bells are ringing otherwise.
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it should be, not that long ago it was a training game for them and a guaranteed three points

that’s the stage we need to get to
 
First derby away to Arsenal that I’ve watched live since 2012 for various reasons I’ve missed the last few and today was a good example of why I find reasons to not watch them live.

We were unlucky with the first goal today but if anyone thinks we deserve any more than we got today then I’m sorry but you are kidding yourselves.

Poch has turned transformed us into a title challenging side over the past few years. But our away form against the top 6 remains dreadful. Not like you can say we’ve been unlucky either, for the most part the performances have been lacklustre. How Poch fixes that I don’t know. Most teams have a bogey ground/team. We have about 10.
 
Jurgen the German said:
First derby away to Arsenal that I’ve watched live since 2012 for various reasons I’ve missed the last few and today was a good example of why I find reasons to not watch them live.

We were unlucky with the first goal today but if anyone thinks we deserve any more than we got today then I’m sorry but you are kidding yourselves.

Poch has turned transformed us into a title challenging side over the past few years. But our away form against the top 6 remains dreadful. Not like you can say we’ve been unlucky either, for the most part the performances have been lacklustre. How Poch fixes that I don’t know. Most teams have a bogey ground/team. We have about 10.
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We used to lose these games mainly because we went toe to toe with the big boys and left ourselves open to the sucker punch at the back.

Now these bastards are treating every game against us on their own patch as their cup final.
 
Jurgen the German said:
First derby away to Arsenal that I’ve watched live since 2012 for various reasons I’ve missed the last few and today was a good example of why I find reasons to not watch them live.

We were unlucky with the first goal today but if anyone thinks we deserve any more than we got today then I’m sorry but you are kidding yourselves.

Poch has turned transformed us into a title challenging side over the past few years. But our away form against the top 6 remains dreadful. Not like you can say we’ve been unlucky either, for the most part the performances have been lacklustre. How Poch fixes that I don’t know. Most teams have a bogey ground/team. We have about 10.
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I disagree about "we got what we deserved". We didn't play well but football swings very quickly on big moments as Poch said. It went in their favour and it lifted them, the crowd and deflated us. As much as we have shown ourselves to be better than them over the course of the past season there isn't a huge chasm between the sides particularly when they have their first choice available to them, and we have some key injuries including those who played today.

Moments win games, it's not always about control. We created some (not great) opportunities and generally they were sharper, but the moments which led to their goals were critical in the overall outcome.
 
Read all the nice sounding words and all. Only four in my mind after remembering the game.

We were very shiite!!!!
 
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