***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Arsenal***

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So the ref in 11 minutes into the United game just now, books Hayden for taking down Mata after united break. Dean did not do this for Xhaka rugby tackling our player when we broke.

I know we were brick today, he been booked then he may have got sent off later.

Had Dean had not given that free kick which was clearly not a foul, we may have got to half time at 0-0. Instead we were 2-0 down. Goals change matches and I thought we were ok before that foul.

He was awful, but not biased IMO. Just generally brick at his job.

When that "foul" (LOL) happened and he gave a free kick I told the Mrs that it would be a goal.

It was inevitable.

Thats how football goes when you are a Spurs fan. You are in a game, doing well, something is gifted to the opposition - they WILL get something from it.

The ref ruined the game, IMO.

 

[P.D.]

On the referee decisions I think not booking Xhaka was correct, it was a yellow card offence but it was also the first big foul in the early stages of a derby so deserves to be let go so the game can flow a bit. I've seen tackles like that result in a yellow card early on in derbies and more often than not the ref loses the plot and it ends up with yellows given out all over the place with no consistency. After that he regularly booked other Arsenal players for lesser challenges.

The 2 offsides were very marginal and I think if we'd scored those we'd claim it was level and the attacker gets the benefit of the doubt.

Facts us we were too sloppy and started too slowly, by the time we re-grouped and got ourselves together it was the 2nd half and the game was pretty much over. Clearly a number of players weren't fully fit (Kane, Alli and Dembele). I can understand why we'd take a risk with Kane but perhaps for the others we could have lined up differently.

I also think the same problems have re-surfaced that have been discussed in numerous threads, the lack of pace at FB which I underestimated when we sold Walker particularly with Rose out. We don't necessarily need it from both sides but from at least one. Secondly we lack someone who can dribble past players, we only have Nkoudou who clearly isn't up to it and at a stretch Lamela can maybe get past 1/2 players but isn't what I'd really call a dribbler. These were shown up massively today when we had no answer to them sitting deep and were unable to stretch the play with pace in wide areas or dribble through to create something.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

On the referee decisions I think not booking Xhaka was correct, it was a yellow card offence but it was also the first big foul in the early stages of a derby so deserves to be let go so the game can flow a bit. I've seen tackles like that result in a yellow card early on in derbies and more often than not the ref loses the plot and it ends up with yellows given out all over the place with no consistency. After that he regularly booked other Arsenal players for lesser challenges.

The 2 offsides were very marginal and I think if we'd scored those we'd claim it was level and the attacker gets the benefit of the doubt.

Facts us we were too sloppy and started too slowly, by the time we re-grouped and got ourselves together it was the 2nd half and the game was pretty much over. Clearly a number of players weren't fully fit (Kane, Alli and Dembele). I can understand why we'd take a risk with Kane but perhaps for the others we could have lined up differently.

I also think the same problems have re-surfaced that have been discussed in numerous threads, the lack of pace at FB which I underestimated when we sold Walker particularly with Rose out. We don't necessarily need it from both sides but from at least one. Secondly we lack someone who can dribble past players, we only have Nkoudou who clearly isn't up to it and at a stretch Lamela can maybe get past 1/2 players but isn't what I'd really call a dribbler. These were shown up massively today when we had no answer to them sitting deep and were unable to stretch the play with pace in wide areas or dribble through to create something.

Sorry mate but I don’t agree with the first point. Had it been a two footed career threatening tackle would it be ok to let it go because it’s the first tackle? If you say no then why let this go? I don’t buy that with a rugby like tackle like that. It was a blatant attempt at stopping an attack which warrants a yellow card regardless of whenever it occurred. Blatant fouls like that are bookings period IMo, late fouls or unintentional fouls I can agree should be let go early on.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Well typically a 1/3rd are derbies is sorta on average

Yeah, that's the thing. This season alone, the big rivals are Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham (6 games) - plus a smaller one in Palace (8 games). In previous seasons, we've also had to deal with other London teams in Fulham and QPR, among others.

Compare that with, say, United. 2 derbies against City. 2 derbies against Liverpool.

Or City. Just the 2 derbies against United. Or Liverpool - 2 against United, 2 against Everton.

It does make a difference when you're chasing the league title, I think.

Wenger got his tactics right, pressed high and hard, nullified space and supply, plus Eriksen was playing his third BIG match in 10 days. He was flat. That's all.

Fair, but then, that implicates Poch - if Wenger got his tactics right, did Poch get his tactics utterly wrong?

Nah, not true mate.

Very true, unless him being sh*te is an intrinsic quality of his - and I don't think it is. I think he's perfectly capable of choosing not to be sh*t, which usually involves giving a damn and making an effort.

Again, the problems were deeper, plus he was playing 70% fit IMO. Our leader and talisman, had he been a fudging giant clown shoe, would've declared himself unfit! Instead, he tried.

He tried, and he played with an injury, but he was sh*te nonetheless. In the post you highlighted, I was defending Sissoko against the brutally unfair portrayal of him being 'the worst player' on the pitch. Sissoko wasn't. Kane could have been, though.

Oh christ, MORE gonads.

Dier, Verts, Trippier and Davies were dopey, slow, and lazy - and were run ragged by Sanchez, Lacazette and Ozil. And outclassed by Monreal, Mustafi (by a long f*cking margin), Bellerin and Kolasinac to boot. I don't think the latter set are so good as to so easily, thoroughly outclass our set of players.

They were 'off' for whatever reason, most (I thought) gave it their best effort on the day (which wasn't good enough) but I did NOT see a 'lack of care'. I know you get extra emotional - I was (and am) not best-pleased, but there has to be reason in the posts IMO>

I disagree. I'm not throwing this angle in out of the blue - there is precedent for this set of players not caring as much about the rivalry with Arsenal as the fans do. Which Poch himself brought up, as I detailed in a previous post on the matter (about the way we lost to Saudi Sportswashing Machine in 15/16). Its not hard to imagine that such a limp display is down to that, because I will not accept that they are worse than their Arsenal counterparts or are capable of being outfought and outclassed so easily on the day. If their 'best effort' was *that*, then this is not the Spurs side that beat Real Madrid, and it is not a Poch side, either.

 

[Kenyan Spur]

Hi All good guys and girls,

That was not good.

I drank my Tusker as normal. But I think the ref. Dean was on something much stronger.
We were not our normal quick passing on the counter attack team.
We seemed to hoof the ball a lot, without much success.
Obviously Kane & Alli were not fully fit. It showed.
Overall, we didn't play as well as we normally do.

In spite of all that we had many chances, but couldn't use them.

Interestingly, the studio guests, Ian Wright & Andy Townsend, had this to say after the game:
- The free kick given against our Sanchez, that resulted in the first goal was VERY harsh.
- Mike Dean, who was miles away from the incident, somehow "thought" that our Sanchez was pulling the other
Sanchez c*unt's shirt. Replays showed this was not the case.
- From this wrongly awarded free kick, Mustifi scored. But he was offside - albeit marginally.
- Kane was brought down in the box, and this should have been a penalty.
- They BOTH agreed that if the above 2 incidents had happened to Arsenal, Arse clown shoe would not have stopped winging about it.

In my grief & sadness, I am now having my last Tusker for the day.

Don't despair folks - we will recover and prevail.

COYS

 

[the dza]

Well, yet another game I had to listen to on the radio at work. Sounded like a real limp-d1ck performance from us, what a time to do it. Goons also sounded like they defended well and were the better side.

Gutted, but I should know better than to have any expectations; no club kicks you in the b0llocks like Spurs do.

Also sounded like Harry wasn't fit? Let him rest against Dortmund please, and WBA if necessary. We can't afford him to limp through the season.

 

[P.D.]

Sorry mate but I don’t agree with the first point. Had it been a two footed career threatening tackle would it be ok to let it go because it’s the first tackle? I don’t buy that with a rugby line tackle like that. It was a blatant attempt at stopping an attack which warrants a yellow card regardless of whenever it occurred. Blatant fouls like that are bookings, late fouls or unintentional fouls I can agree should be let go early on.

This wasn't a 2 footed tackle though, yes it was cynical but it was the first one of a massive derby match that was really just a heavy bodycheck that broke up play. It was calculated and in most cases it would be a yellow I agree but for me you need to let the game flow a little in a derby.

 

[P.D.]

Yeah, that's the thing. This season alone, the big rivals are Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham (6 games) - plus a smaller one in Palace (8 games). In previous seasons, we've also had to deal with other London teams in Fulham and QPR, among others.

Compare that with, say, United. 2 derbies against City. 2 derbies against Liverpool.

Or City. Just the 2 derbies against United. Or Liverpool - 2 against United, 2 against Everton.

It does make a difference when you're chasing the league title, I think.

But it doesn't seem to affect Chelsea who have won the title numerous times recently or Arsenal back in the day. In fact it should make it easier for us to be up for the derby games rather than regular mid table teams like West Brom etc.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

This wasn't a 2 footed tackle though, yes it was cynical but it was the first one of a massive derby match that was really just a heavy bodycheck that broke up play. It was calculated and in most cases it would be a yellow I agree but for me you need to let the game flow a little in a derby.

It wasn’t a two footed foul no, but it was a cynical foul that Xhaka knew he was doing. A blatant cynical foul should be a yellow in the first minute and 90th minute. A silly foul where you slide in late or mistime, maybe should be let go but the ref got that one wrong completely. You should let the game flow for little tackles like that but never cynical fouls.

 

[P.D.]

It wasn’t a two footed foul no, but it was a cynical foul that Xhaka knew he was doing. A blatant cynical foul should be a yellow in the first minute and 90th minute. A silly foul where you slide in late or mistime, maybe should be let go but the ref 400% got that one wrong.

Of course he knew what he was doing and Dean was well aware off it as well and I think intentionally let it go for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Of course he knew what he was doing and Dean was well aware off it as well and I think intentionally let it go for the reasons I mentioned.

Yeh I know, but he was wrong to do that.

 

[Mikey10]

Do you know what Arsenal’s home record is? Iirc, they have won 16 of their last 17 games.

To beat them when they play like they did today, our players have to be at the top of their game. Today, sadly they weren’t. It wasn’t for a lack of effort in my opinion,it was just that too many had poor games today

Sorry I don’t agree.
We lost yes, but our desire and effort were fine.

The West Ham cup game was worthy of good moan but not today.

In two or three days, I wonder how many SPurs fans will actually truly believe that any/many of our players didn't care about the game today.

I’m sure no one will think that the players didn’t care but, for whatever reason, we were second to everything and we seemed afraid to really get stuck in; perhaps tiredness, perhaps niggling injuries for some.

Arsenal overran us in the way we overran teams for large parts of last season.

 

[thfcsteff]

I have edited out some of the hyperbolic exhalations, but again, I find myself unable to NOT respond to some of your more egregious (repeat) assertions.

Eriksen hungover from *what*? He scored a hat-trick against Ireland, so he thinks it's okay to coast in a North London Derby? If so, he's mentally far weaker than his counterpart on the other side, Ozil. Ozil played for Germany - came back, and ran us utterly ragged. Eriksen blew his load with Denmark, and then looked like a League 2 player against Arsenal. So who really is the mentally stronger player? Who *gave more* of a sh*t?


Ozil ran nobody fudging ragged! He delivered ONE decent free-kick which should not have been awarded to a (marginally) offside player who scored. And for once in his bug-eyes scum career, he worked off the ball. It has been a rarity. But he did NOT 'run us ragged'. That is just nonsense!!!! As for assuming that Eriksen was 'mentally weak' today, I think that once again you're just spouting like an empty uncontrolled geyser. Eriksen. Played a two-leg World Cup Finals qualifier knock-out; his tank was always going to be a little emptier than usual. That you can even compare Ozil's stroll about for Germany (at Wembley!) in a meaningless friendly is utterly bizarre.


Dele 'off form'. He wasn't 'off form' against Madrid, but he was here. He ran like a demon against Real Madrid, he barely lifted a finger today. Why? What is the difference?


I suppose if the bloke doesn't score every game or produce at least two assists, he has 'barely lifted a finger'? Come on.


Eriksen scoring a hat-trick against Ireland is nice for him, and nice to celebrate. If he thinks it entitles him to show up to a North London Derby and look like a League 2 player, his mentality is *wrong*. Alli running the game against Madrid and then looking utterly lost and uninterested is *wrong*. Verts and Dier bumbling about like disinterested OAPs is *wrong*.

Now you're embarrassing yourself. It's like reading a 'Spurs' version of A*****l TV!!!!

We had the skill to match them today, if we wanted to. We just didn't want to. The players didn't care. This is the key point we disagree on.

I think we lacked the necessary energy to fight as hard as they did today. I think that is down to several factors, some of which are absolutely down to us and that we need to take responsibility for. But 'uninterested', 'like a League 2 player', 'the players didn't care'? Sorry, absolute complete and UTTER tosh!!!!!

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

I love this place after a loss. Everyone is a bit on edge and not as friendly after, say, a win.

 

[DubaiSpur]

But it doesn't seem to affect Chelsea who have won the title numerous times recently or Arsenal back in the day. In fact it should make it easier for us to be up for the derby games rather than regular mid table teams like West Brom etc.

Yeah, well, we're Spurs. It's always harder for us.

 

[90291Spur]

I love this place after a loss. Everyone is a bit on edge and not as friendly after, say, a win.

How dare you....

 

[thfcsteff]

Fair, but then, that implicates Poch - if Wenger got his tactics right, did Poch get his tactics utterly wrong?

I wanted Winks to start and Dele deeper. I did not want Dembele to start. I can only assume that Winks was only able to play for 30 mins today. I personally think it was a mistake playing Dembele today, but unlike you, I TRUST a manager who has CONSISTENTLY shown we are on an ASCENDANT TRAJECTORY!!!!!!



Very true, unless him being sh*te is an intrinsic quality of his - and I don't think it is. I think he's perfectly capable of choosing not to be sh*t, which usually involves giving a damn and making an effort.


No, NOT true!!!!! I'm sorry, you're just spouting because you're angry. Dele ran hard today, it just didn't happen for him. He was well-marked and the Goons did a great job of shutting down Tripper and Davies, forcing each midfield ball to be at first either square or back, and slowing down the speed at which we could move through the gears.



He tried, and he played with an injury, but he was sh*te nonetheless. In the post you highlighted, I was defending Sissoko against the brutally unfair portrayal of him being 'the worst player' on the pitch. Sissoko wasn't. Kane could have been, though.

So defend Sissoko. Don't throw a man who fudging gives his heart and soul for this club week in week out under the bus as you do. I've spent the entire season managing to defend Sissoko without throwing others under the bus. BTW, Kane should've had a pen, but we'll leave that...



Dier, Verts, Trippier and Davies were dopey, slow, and lazy - and were run ragged by Sanchez, Lacazette and Ozil. And outclassed by Monreal, Mustafi (by a long f*cking margin), Bellerin and Kolasinac to boot. I don't think the latter set are so good as to so easily, thoroughly outclass our set of players.


Your idea of 'outclass' is obviously very, VERY different to mine, because frankly, I think you're talking absolute tosh.



I disagree. I'm not throwing this angle in out of the blue - there is precedent for this set of players not caring as much about the rivalry with Arsenal as the fans do. Which Poch himself brought up, as I detailed in a previous post on the matter (about the way we lost to Saudi Sportswashing Machine in 15/16). Its not hard to imagine that such a limp display is down to that, because I will not accept that they are worse than their Arsenal counterparts or are capable of being outfought and outclassed so easily on the day. If their 'best effort' was *that*, then this is not the Spurs side that beat Real Madrid, and it is not a Poch side, either.


If YOU think today was even CLOSE to that brick-show in Geordieland, then we'd have lost by 5 and given up. We didn't. Nobody's disputing that we ended up being outfought, nobody's suggesting it was not enormously disappointing and nobody's suggesting we couldn't have played much better. What disappoints me MORE is the IMO shocking overreaction and lack of context offered by repeat opinions such as yours. Often in these games, details decide games. And that was the same again today. The reason I am disappointed is that I thought we would (and should!) win because we are the better side. We did not show it today.THAT is why I am personally disappointed. Sorry...I cannot entertain the repeated hyperbolic negativity!

 

[DubaiSpur]

I have edited out some of the hyperbolic exhalations, but again, I find myself unable to NOT respond to some of your more egregious (repeat) assertions.

They have been consistently made all across this damn thread. If you respond to them all, there will be twenty-five parallel angry posts for me to respond to. I'd rather stick to just these two, if it's alright with you.

Ozil ran nobody fudging ragged! He delivered ONE decent free-kick which should not have been awarded to a (marginally) offside player who scored. And for once in his bug-eyes scum career, he worked off the ball. It has been a rarity. But he did NOT 'run us ragged'. That is just nonsense!!!! As for assuming that Eriksen was 'mentally weak' today, I think that once again you're just spouting like an empty uncontrolled geyser. Eriksen. Played a two-leg World Cup Finals qualifier knock-out; his tank was always going to be a little emptier than usual. That you can even compare Ozil's stroll about for Germany (at Wembley!) in a meaningless friendly is utterly bizarre.

You watched that second half. Did you see how awful we were when Ozil was on the ball? How desperately we back-pedalled? How unable we were to close him down, to stop him from advancing, or to prevent him orchestrating the game in any way? Even the vaguely 'intelligent' pundits (Neville and co.) agree that he ran the game - he was fantastic. Eriksen, by contrast, just didn't even register. Again, if he wants to score a hat-trick against Denmark, great - Kong Christian Dannemann Eriksen, Danish hero. If he comes to the *North London Derby* and puts on a laboured, half-arsed performance because he put all his energy into playing for Denmark the previous week, that is *wrong* from our perspective - he has his obligations to Denmark, his country, but he has his obligations to us, too. He played like a League 2 player put into the Premier League, and I stand by that characterization.

I suppose if the bloke doesn't score every game or produce at least two assists, he has 'barely lifted a finger'? Come on.

How about consistently keeping the ball. Or looking like a threat at least *once* in ninety minutes. Or working the keeper *once*. I'm not asking for miracles.

Now you're embarrassing yourself. It's like reading a 'Spurs' version of A*****l TV!!!!

Not even worth bothering with this particular point.

I think we lacked the necessary energy to fight as hard as they did today. I think that is down to several factors, some of which are absolutely down to us and that we need to take responsibility for. But 'uninterested', 'like a League 2 player', 'the players didn't care'? Sorry, absolute complete and UTTER tosh!!!!!

They looked lost against equal opponents - inferior everywhere. They put less effort in, and were outfought *everywhere*. You say some factors were down to us and that we need to take responsibility for them. Okay, *what*? What was our fault? All I'm seeing so far in *all* the responses is this insistence that we weren't outfought, that it just wasn't our day, that it just happens, that it's eminently understandable that our ickle players were outfought and outthought by some mugs from the Emirates and went down without ever looking like they cared much to stop it.

*What* is our fault? *What* did we do that led to this?

 

[thfcsteff]

Nah Dubai, I'm done. You stick to your guns mate. Glad they aren't mine. I explained in an earlier comment the factors I felt contributed, but unless I stick the sword to all of them and burn them at the stake, it won't be enough for you. So enjoy the misery mate...but trust me, when you surface for air, you'll see it's WAY over the top.

I tell you, I am bordering on embarrassed at your reaction. You keep asking 'what' is our fault, it's been mapped out by several postees, it's been discussed, other contributing factors offered as well as other details. There are even the dreaded 'stats' which offer support. But you'd rather bang on about 'Kong Eriksen' and 'our ickle players'...again, embarrassing IMO. I have criticisms but I will also apply context, because today there was an awful fudging lot of it to apply. Enjoy the rest of the weekend as best you can!

 

[thfcsteff]

This wasn't a 2 footed tackle though, yes it was cynical but it was the first one of a massive derby match that was really just a heavy bodycheck that broke up play. It was calculated and in most cases it would be a yellow I agree but for me you need to let the game flow a little in a derby.

What does anyone say about Sanchez's two-footed from behind studs showing challenge on Sanchez?